Should I use Amylase?

[applescrap]

Made a light lager and I started the mash at 158, let it free fall for 90 minutes cause was at bday party. Gravity was 1.040 or something. Not sure how calories work, but it's my understanding that if I use enzymes I lower the calories and raise the abv. Would be cool with both! So should I use it and if so, how and when would be much appreciated.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Relative to the same starting gravity, yes, a more attenuated beer will have slightly less calories and higher alcohol.

Instead of enzyme, you could mash at ~143-150, and/or use high attenuating yeast.

Also, not all enzymes are equal. Glucoamylase is much more effective at breaking down dextrins than amylase.

Hope this helps.

 

[bracconiere]

DAMN RIGHT! Add it! i get 231g's of alcohol for the price of 163g's in a day of 'day drinking'! lol (calories wise)

edit: or ~17 beers instead of ~11

 

[Schlenkerla]

If you want to make a light beer doing everything right helps. Typically with every ingredient found in beer.

Use 6-row barley along with the standard 2-row and your favorite flaked adjunct; corn, rice, wheat, or rye. Six row has more enzymes for converting adjuncts into sugars.

Use a water with very low dissolved solids, be that deionized or reverse osmosis water. It has the least amount of minerals absorbed in the water. Will be lower in dissolved oxygen too. Helps with retaining natural malt and hop flavors.

Use German or Czech hops varieties for adherence to beer profile thinking of target bitterness, flavor and aroma.

Mash low, around 147F, low mash converts more starches and makes the body of the beer thinner.

Pitch a highly attenuating and high flocculating yeast. It's will work towards zero gravity and drops very clear when finished.

Pitch enzymes late in fermentation, namely amylase enzyme as the final insurance policy to ensure residual starches get fully converted into fermentable sugars. Specially the adjunct starches. This is a substitute for lagering.

It works very well and saves you some fermentation time. Specifically having to wait out that time that's required for lagering and the diacetal rest. You also don't need to get the beer down to lager temperatures.

It's a poor man's way to achieve lagering quality and without the sulfur notes that may come with using a lager yeast. Therefore you can use a clean dry ale yeast. Using it the secondary often leaves a dry parched taste. This fades when chilled for a week after being carbonated.

Amylase Enzyme - It's an essential ingredient in my Miller Lite Clone. It's recommended by Charlie Papazian way back in the 1997 edition of "Brewer's Gold". It's really in his recipe for that beer that I bastardized in the March Madness Marketing Campaign where Miller Lite is said to be triple hopped. Really Triple Hoping makes it better. Not sure Miller actually does triple hopping like they say.

$0.02

[emoji482]

 

[passedpawn]

If you want to make a light beer doing everything right helps. Typically with every ingredient found in beer.

Use 6-row barley along with the standard 2-row and your favorite flaked adjunct; corn, rice, wheat, or rye. Six row has more enzymes for converting adjuncts into sugars.

Use a water with very low dissolved solids, be that deionized or reverse osmosis water. It has the least amount of minerals absorbed in the water. Will be lower in dissolved oxygen too. Helps with retaining natural malt and hop flavors.

Use German or Czech hops varieties for adherence to beer profile thinking of target bitterness, flavor and aroma.

Mash low, around 147F, low mash converts more starches and makes the body of the beer thinner.

Pitch a highly attenuating and high flocculating yeast. It's will work towards zero gravity and drops very clear when finished.

Pitch enzymes late in fermentation, namely amylase enzyme as the final insurance policy to ensure residual starches get fully converted into fermentable sugars. Specially the adjunct starches. This is a substitute for lagering.

It works very well and saves you some fermentation time. Specifically having to wait out that time that's required for lagering and the diacetal rest. You also don't need to get the beer down to lager temperatures.

It's a poor man's way to achieve lagering quality and without the sulfur notes that may come with using a lager yeast. Therefore you can use a clean dry ale yeast. Using it the secondary often leaves a dry parched taste. This fades when chilled for a week after being carbonated.

Amylase Enzyme - It's an essential ingredient in my Miller Lite Clone. It's recommended by Charlie Papazian way back in the 1997 edition of "Brewer's Gold". It's really in his recipe for that beer that I bastardized in the March Madness Marketing Campaign where Miller Lite is said to be triple hopped. Really Triple Hoping makes it better. Not sure Miller actually does triple hopping like they say.

$0.02

[emoji482]

Miller Lite comes from my hometown in Maumee, OH. If you can tell me why, you win the interwebz.

But on topic, I used amylase enzymes on my last light lager ( I make them often). I don't think it made a difference. I always mash low (148ish) when I make them.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Miller Lite comes from my hometown in Maumee, OH. If you can tell me why, you win the interwebz.

But on topic, I used amylase enzymes on my last light lager ( I make them often). I don't think it made a difference. I always mash low (148ish) when I make them.

Don't know.... Hmm. My book about the Miller, and the Lite recipe says nothing about Ohio. I'm willing to hear about it though.

I also think this was used when there was not a large selection of ale yeast that met the needs of high attenuation and high flocculation. Like English variety that I started with ... Nottingham. Damn I pulled that out of my arse. Sat here for while trying to remember that yeast.

 

[applescrap]

^^wow, some kick a light lager jems Schlenkerla. Thanks so much. Am really interested in the enzyme part. Sounds like the consensus is to use the enzyme for this style. I don't understand the calorie aspect of it all still. I get that the attenuation is increased and more sugar(maltose?) is converted to alchohol but what is the calorie difference. Is there a calorie hb calculator? I'll have to look. I used Simpson's golden promise and 3.1% hallertau.

 

[Schlenkerla]

One can also drop AE in the mash tun too.

 

[Schlenkerla]

FWIW - The book says to use it but doesn't really say why. I can only assume it's for removing calories associated to sugar. Alcohol has calories too right?

Says the FDA to use "Light" requires 25% less calories than a regular beer. So if you sell beer and light beer you need to achieve 25% less to use the word light on the label in 1997.

 

[applescrap]

Is this the right stuff? Haha, sweet, said delivery tomorrow, but guess Friday. Is that too late, brewed Sunday. I don't think the yeast is going to take to long to rip through 1.040ish wort at 67 degrees.

 

[applescrap]

Dang it, again. Heres pic

 

[RPh_Guy]

Also, not all enzymes are equal. Glucoamylase is much more effective at breaking down dextrins than amylase.

^^^
That's a regular amylase product, not glucoamylase. It just depends what you want.
I've used amylase trying to help me reach a very low gravity, but it wasn't helpful at all (the beer was already at a pretty low gravity).
Glucoamylase is much more effective for my purpose.

Lol, and they don't know how to spell enzyme. Classy.

P.S. I haven't seen any accurate calorie calculators. I think I could maybe come up with an equation myself.

 

[applescrap]

Dang it, missed passed and rph, so I need glucose ae?

 

[applescrap]

Cancelled amylase and ordered this

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, assuming that's the same product LD Carlson markets as FastFerm glucoamylase.

Sheesh, it's a lot cheaper in bulk if it's the same thing.

 

[passedpawn]

I might give it a try if it works out for you scrappy.

 

[applescrap]

Yeah, assuming that's the same product LD Carlson markets as FastFerm glucoamylase.

Sheesh, it's a lot cheaper in bulk if it's the same thing.

Yeah I noticed that. Felt a little bullied to get that 1 pound bag. $6 for 1 dose or $24 for 40 doses. Schlenkerla Said to add it late in the Ferment but I fear that the ferment is over perhaps. These light beers ferment very quickly. I pitched the yeast Monday afternoon And yesterday morning I noticed fermentation was starting. But Last night the beers looked way more translucent And I'm starting to wonder if fermentation is over. By Saturday will fermentation be too complete? and will it be too late or does this stuff work at any time? Also how in the heck am I supposed to measure this stuff without opening and closing the fermenter a bunch of times?

As many of you know I just recently got a hydrometer and have never used one in the past And quite frankly don't enjoy using it. I'm sticking my hands and things in the beer that I would never do. In this case I want to know where it stopped and where it goes after. I will be floating the hydrometer straight in the bucket but still I have to open it. For the sake of science though!!

 

[applescrap]

I might give it a try if it works out for you scrappy.

Haha. You could have told me I was heading towards light lagers. Not sure I would have believed you. They're easy drinking and easy to make and low in calories. And I can't confirm yet but I think they're a good candidate for no chill. Yeah I'll report back and hopefully it will be something that lowers the calories in increases the enjoyment. I don't love drinking cider dry I hope it's not like that.

I would like to add lime juice, lime zest, and I guess lime extract if needed to one of them. Would I just do all at bottling or is some of that supposed to go in the boil? Thanks

 

[passedpawn]

Haha. You could have told me I was heading towards light lagers. Not sure I would have believed you. They're easy drinking and easy to make and low in calories. And I can't confirm yet but I think they're a good candidate for no chill. Yeah I'll report back and hopefully it will be something that lowers the calories in increases the enjoyment. I don't love drinking cider dry I hope it's not like that.

I would like to add lime juice, lime zest, and I guess lime extract if needed to one of them. Would I just do all at bottling or is some of that supposed to go in the boil? Thanks

You'll explore all paths along your journey

I've used rice (minute rice, right out of the box!) in mine in the past. It lightens it up considerably. It's hot as Hades here in FL right now. I spend most of the wkend working outside on my trees and yard. I love the ice tea, but when it's beer time a light lager is great.

 

[eric19312]

I've been using this one Amazon Diazyme in my Brut IPAs - in the fermentor - at rate of 6 mL in 16 gallon batch and hitting FG around 0.998 from OG 1.052. Tried using in mash and fermentor, did not get better attenuation. Tried using in mash only and did not work. Fermentor alone is fine.

Regarding the question about calories suggest you play with this calculator: http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml

As an example a 1.040 beer that finishes at 1.006 has ABV 4.5%, 130 calories and 10.6 carbs per 12 oz
same beer finishing at 0.997 has ABV 5.7%, 126 calories and 3.5 carbs per 12 oz

I've been working on these brut IPAs to support my low carb diet and they are working out well. Have been thinking about brewing this weekend and am thinking I will drop my OG a bit and use some of those hallertau hops I've been saving and see how it works out as a quick light lager. Will still use the US-05 pitch I've been saving from last batch and ferment at 66-68.

 

[Lefou]

I tend to like the lighter, dry styles of beer and have found the tricks and advice in schlenkerla's Post #4 are right on the money.
You can use a highly diastatic, all malt grist like Pilsner, two/six-row, and Briess Vienna. It doesn't hurt to add a malted wheat. Do an extended, low mash temp in soft, balanced water up to 90 minutes to 2 hours and lauter until clear. I keep my mash kettle at or near 145F-148F the whole time and get a good hot break. I've noticed a wort around 1.045 or so done near 60F with a highly flocculent, neutral ale yeast like WLP001 will ferment in very short order.
Beers like this should have a low to mild hopping rate so they don't seem too sharply bitter. Get it cold-aged after bottle carbing is done. A couple years ago I fiddled with a highly diastatic malt done with a slightly thinner mash and when the beer was finished, I gave some to a friend who told me the WLP001 ale made this way tasted just like a lager.

Objective complete!

 

[applescrap]

I am getting a little cold feet here. I don't care about carbs and I want a 4 percent beer not 5 plus. If it make the beer more light in mouthfeel then I will be happy, but that strong a drink from such little grain scares me. Idk, guess I'll just give it a whirl. Any help on lime ideas appreciated

 

[Schlenkerla]

I am getting a little cold feet here. I don't care about carbs and I want a 4 percent beer not 5 plus. If it make the beer more light in mouthfeel then I will be happy, but that strong a drink from such little grain scares me. Idk, guess I'll just give it a whirl. Any help on lime ideas appreciated

Do it. It's not that much different. If it's too high next time you can cut back the grain or adjunct amounts.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Regarding the question about calories suggest you play with this calculator: http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml

Thanks. This does seem accurate.

Look at this example:
OG 1.040
FG 1.010
Calories: 132

Now if you add enzyme to drop FG 10 points...
OG 1.040
FG 1.000
Calories: 127.4
You reduced it by 4.6 calories. Not exactly a great way to lose weight if you consume the same amount of higher alcohol beer at the same OG.

However, if you drop the OG to maintain ABV with enzyme to lower FG...
OG 1.030
FG 1.000
Calories: 95.4
You save 36.6 calories per 12 oz. Now you're getting somewhere.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Thanks. This does seem accurate.

Look at this example:
OG 1.040
FG 1.010
Calories: 132

Now if you add enzyme to drop FG 10 points...
OG 1.040
FG 1.000
Calories: 127.4
You reduced it by 4.6 calories. Not exactly a great way to lose weight if you consume the same amount of higher alcohol beer at the same OG.

However, if you drop the OG to maintain ABV with enzyme to lower FG...
OG 1.030
FG 1.000
Calories: 95.4
You save 36.6 calories per 12 oz. Now you're getting somewhere.

That's a very good point there. That's how you do it.

My Miller Lite Clone is 1.030 and that ferments to 1.000.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks. This does seem accurate.

Look at this example:
OG 1.040
FG 1.010
Calories: 132

Now if you add enzyme to drop FG 10 points...
OG 1.040
FG 1.000
Calories: 127.4
You reduced it by 4.6 calories. Not exactly a great way to lose weight if you consume the same amount of higher alcohol beer at the same OG.

However, if you drop the OG to maintain ABV with enzyme to lower FG...
OG 1.030
FG 1.000
Calories: 95.4
You save 36.6 calories per 12 oz. Now you're getting somewhere.

Excellent work here, thanks. So mich ultra? I think I understand this. Less grain and adjunct to create lower gravity, then use enzyme to get back to 4.2 abv but less calories.

Speaking of adjunct I have been using sugar but rye and others sound interesting. I love basmati rice. Would I just mash it? Basmati rice and golden promise light, sounds good enough. I don't like chilli in beer but this one would suit that well I suspect.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Excellent work here, thanks. So mich ultra? I think I understand this. Less grain and adjunct to create lower gravity, then use enzyme to get back to 4.2 abv but less calories.

Speaking of adjunct I have been using sugar but rye and others sound interesting. I love basmati rice. Would I just mash it? Basmati rice and golden promise light, sounds good enough. I don't like chilli in beer but this one would suit that well I suspect.

No. You would buy the flaked cereal from a home brew shop. It's not breakfast cereal either. See this link.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/collections/flaked-unmalted-adjunct-grains

 

[eric19312]

I am getting a little cold feet here. I don't care about carbs and I want a 4 percent beer not 5 plus. If it make the beer more light in mouthfeel then I will be happy, but that strong a drink from such little grain scares me. Idk, guess I'll just give it a whirl. Any help on lime ideas appreciated

@Schlenkerla gave you the right advice at going down to 1.030 OG but I'll admit I'm brewing my Brut IPAs at 7%+ ABV with FG under 1.000 and they are tasty. I'll probably shoot for the 1.040 example I provided above when I try it as a lager style beer (meaning hopped like a lager not like an IPA).

 

[Schlenkerla]

@Schlenkerla gave you the right advice at going down to 1.030 OG but I'll admit I'm brewing my Brut IPAs at 7%+ ABV with FG under 1.000 and they are tasty. I'll probably shoot for the 1.040 example I provided above when I try it as a lager style beer (meaning hopped like a lager not like an IPA).

I have brewed a few Saisons while not light beers, if you add enough cane sugar or corn sugar you will get a very dry Saison. At zero or lower.

 

[eric19312]

I have brewed a few Saisons while not light beers, if you add enough cane sugar or corn sugar you will get a very dry Saison. At zero or lower.

Sure that 3711 is a crazy attenuator and likely other Saison yeasts are as well. I remember them being named as likely contaminant when Left Hand sued While Labs over refermentation in bottle due to presence of diastaticus. But while I enjoy Saisons, Brut IPA is a different flavor profile target. Maybe not going to catch on but I am enjoying them for now.

 

[Lefou]

Excellent work here, thanks. So mich ultra? I think I understand this. Less grain and adjunct to create lower gravity, then use enzyme to get back to 4.2 abv but less calories.

Speaking of adjunct I have been using sugar but rye and others sound interesting. I love basmati rice. Would I just mash it? Basmati rice and golden promise light, sounds good enough. I don't like chilli in beer but this one would suit that well I suspect.

Not all rice is created equal - and yes, you may need to cook it properly in order to get it to mash well.
I love the popcorn smell of cooking Basmati rice and scored some very cheap bags of it recently. Aged Basmati rice can be very dry so you need to increase the amount of water to gelatinize properly. In order to mash properly, cooked rice needs to be soft enough to pinch flat between finger and thumb or have enough water added to look like corn grits.
Once the enzyme is added and the mash is done, the rice starches should liquify and be dissolved as it converts to glucose.

Unfortunately that nice popcorn Basmati rice smell won't carry over to your beer, Mr. Scrap. You'll only get it when cooking or during the mash. One of the smoothest, but sneakily stronger versions of a rice adjunct beer you'll find commercially is the San Miguel Pale Pilsner.
As a traveler I can tell you I messed with the horse and it kicked me in the ass. Anyone who has been to the PI can tell you what that means. That was the stronger Red Horse lager version, but I can probably say the beer you're looking to brew isn't going to be that strong.

 

[applescrap]

The glucoamylase is here! I cant wait to put my hydrometer in the beer. But, I have been working in the garden all day. I am going to glove up and sanitize gloves.

 

[applescrap]

Ok, 1.012. Assume final gravity. Higher as suspected due to hotter mash. Put 1/2 tsp glucoamylase in per directions.

 

[applescrap]

Update, according to brewers friend calculator on the 11.5 g I made at 1.042, 1.012 was indeed the finely predicted gravity. When I shined a light in the beer it was translucent to the bottom.

Well yesterday I pitched the enzyme, beer essentially at fg. Last night I checked and the beer is opaque again in the bucket and I suspect on it's way to 1.000. I starsaned the measuring spoon. Let dry, and sprinkled a somewhat rounded half tsp over the top. Will update when I check again.

Dont know how fast it works, but figure it cant be long.

 

[passedpawn]

Update, according to brewers friend calculator on the 11.5 g I made at 1.042, 1.012 was indeed the finely predicted gravity. When I shined a light in the beer it was translucent to the bottom.

Well yesterday I pitched the enzyme, beer essentially at fg. Last night I checked and the beer is opaque again in the bucket and I suspect on it's way to 1.000. I starsaned the measuring spoon. Let dry, and sprinkled a somewhat rounded half tsp over the top. Will update when I check again.

Dont know how fast it works, but figure it cant be long.

Enzyme activity is directly related to temperature. At fermenting temperatures, it'll probably take at least a week for the gravity to drop and stabilize again. I base that thought on my past experience with alpha-amylase.

As you're probably aware, these enzymes don't change the gravity directly - they are only cleaving the long-chain sugars into smaller sugars that can be used by the yeast. If the yeast isn't healthy, or for some reason is not available, the gravity will change slowly, or not at all. For this reason, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add more yeast. Not really necessary, but if you've got spare yeast on hand, why not?

 

[applescrap]

Went and checked and this second ferment is moving along slowly just as you said. Appreciate the knowledge. Is that cleved into maltose and sucrose from glucose? Don't have any yeast laying round, but that 3470 is super slow to flocc. I'll update when I see a change.

 

[Lefou]

With enough enzyme this should work on any leftover starches and the maltose should be broken down to glucose, too.
Maltose is a disacharride (bond of two glucose molecules).

 

[applescrap]

Ok today is the day. Have been travelling around, etc. But yesterday keg kicked so today in goes new light lager. It looks much clearer, so I expect low gravity. Cant wait to put my dipstick in it.

 

[applescrap]

I've been using this one Amazon Diazyme in my Brut IPAs - in the fermentor - at rate of 6 mL in 16 gallon batch and hitting FG around 0.998 from OG 1.052. Tried using in mash and fermentor, did not get better attenuation. Tried using in mash only and did not work. Fermentor alone is fine.

Regarding the question about calories suggest you play with this calculator: http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml

As an example a 1.040 beer that finishes at 1.006 has ABV 4.5%, 130 calories and 10.6 carbs per 12 oz
same beer finishing at 0.997 has ABV 5.7%, 126 calories and 3.5 carbs per 12 oz

I've been working on these brut IPAs to support my low carb diet and they are working out well. Have been thinking about brewing this weekend and am thinking I will drop my OG a bit and use some of those hallertau hops I've been saving and see how it works out as a quick light lager. Will still use the US-05 pitch I've been saving from last batch and ferment at 66-68.

Playing with that calculator it says mine is 4 percent before enzyme, and 130 calories. So does bud light and Coors use enzyme? It's the only way I can see 100 calories at 4 percent is with enzyme? Also that would account for the watery mouthfeel of bud light?

 

[eric19312]

Playing with that calculator it says mine is 4 percent before enzyme, and 130 calories. So does bud light and Coors use enzyme? It's the only way I can see 100 calories at 4 percent is with enzyme? Also that would account for the watery mouthfeel of bud light?

Beta glucanase does occur naturally in malted barley and we do use in it a standard mash. I think your question is about adding extra enzymes to the mash and I think the answer to the question about whether this is done in commercial production of American light lager is yes. I found a few sources including this one https://scienceforecastoa.com/Articles/JNFSF-V1-E1-1002.pdf These beers are also brewed at higher than package strength and watered down to label ABV at packaging.

I do wonder about Bud Light...what about their purity campaign? I don't see enzymes mentioned on the box.