Should I use Amylase?

[Lefou]

Excellent work here, thanks. So mich ultra? I think I understand this. Less grain and adjunct to create lower gravity, then use enzyme to get back to 4.2 abv but less calories.

Speaking of adjunct I have been using sugar but rye and others sound interesting. I love basmati rice. Would I just mash it? Basmati rice and golden promise light, sounds good enough. I don't like chilli in beer but this one would suit that well I suspect.

Not all rice is created equal - and yes, you may need to cook it properly in order to get it to mash well.
I love the popcorn smell of cooking Basmati rice and scored some very cheap bags of it recently. Aged Basmati rice can be very dry so you need to increase the amount of water to gelatinize properly. In order to mash properly, cooked rice needs to be soft enough to pinch flat between finger and thumb or have enough water added to look like corn grits.
Once the enzyme is added and the mash is done, the rice starches should liquify and be dissolved as it converts to glucose.

Unfortunately that nice popcorn Basmati rice smell won't carry over to your beer, Mr. Scrap. You'll only get it when cooking or during the mash. One of the smoothest, but sneakily stronger versions of a rice adjunct beer you'll find commercially is the San Miguel Pale Pilsner.
As a traveler I can tell you I messed with the horse and it kicked me in the ass. Anyone who has been to the PI can tell you what that means. That was the stronger Red Horse lager version, but I can probably say the beer you're looking to brew isn't going to be that strong.

 

[applescrap]

The glucoamylase is here! I cant wait to put my hydrometer in the beer. But, I have been working in the garden all day. I am going to glove up and sanitize gloves.

 

[applescrap]

Ok, 1.012. Assume final gravity. Higher as suspected due to hotter mash. Put 1/2 tsp glucoamylase in per directions.

 

[applescrap]

Update, according to brewers friend calculator on the 11.5 g I made at 1.042, 1.012 was indeed the finely predicted gravity. When I shined a light in the beer it was translucent to the bottom.

Well yesterday I pitched the enzyme, beer essentially at fg. Last night I checked and the beer is opaque again in the bucket and I suspect on it's way to 1.000. I starsaned the measuring spoon. Let dry, and sprinkled a somewhat rounded half tsp over the top. Will update when I check again.

Dont know how fast it works, but figure it cant be long.

 

[passedpawn]

Update, according to brewers friend calculator on the 11.5 g I made at 1.042, 1.012 was indeed the finely predicted gravity. When I shined a light in the beer it was translucent to the bottom.

Well yesterday I pitched the enzyme, beer essentially at fg. Last night I checked and the beer is opaque again in the bucket and I suspect on it's way to 1.000. I starsaned the measuring spoon. Let dry, and sprinkled a somewhat rounded half tsp over the top. Will update when I check again.

Dont know how fast it works, but figure it cant be long.

Enzyme activity is directly related to temperature. At fermenting temperatures, it'll probably take at least a week for the gravity to drop and stabilize again. I base that thought on my past experience with alpha-amylase.

As you're probably aware, these enzymes don't change the gravity directly - they are only cleaving the long-chain sugars into smaller sugars that can be used by the yeast. If the yeast isn't healthy, or for some reason is not available, the gravity will change slowly, or not at all. For this reason, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add more yeast. Not really necessary, but if you've got spare yeast on hand, why not?

 

[applescrap]

Went and checked and this second ferment is moving along slowly just as you said. Appreciate the knowledge. Is that cleved into maltose and sucrose from glucose? Don't have any yeast laying round, but that 3470 is super slow to flocc. I'll update when I see a change.

 

[Lefou]

With enough enzyme this should work on any leftover starches and the maltose should be broken down to glucose, too.
Maltose is a disacharride (bond of two glucose molecules).

 

[applescrap]

Ok today is the day. Have been travelling around, etc. But yesterday keg kicked so today in goes new light lager. It looks much clearer, so I expect low gravity. Cant wait to put my dipstick in it.

 

[applescrap]

I've been using this one Amazon Diazyme in my Brut IPAs - in the fermentor - at rate of 6 mL in 16 gallon batch and hitting FG around 0.998 from OG 1.052. Tried using in mash and fermentor, did not get better attenuation. Tried using in mash only and did not work. Fermentor alone is fine.

Regarding the question about calories suggest you play with this calculator: http://www.mrgoodbeer.com/carb-cal.shtml

As an example a 1.040 beer that finishes at 1.006 has ABV 4.5%, 130 calories and 10.6 carbs per 12 oz
same beer finishing at 0.997 has ABV 5.7%, 126 calories and 3.5 carbs per 12 oz

I've been working on these brut IPAs to support my low carb diet and they are working out well. Have been thinking about brewing this weekend and am thinking I will drop my OG a bit and use some of those hallertau hops I've been saving and see how it works out as a quick light lager. Will still use the US-05 pitch I've been saving from last batch and ferment at 66-68.

Playing with that calculator it says mine is 4 percent before enzyme, and 130 calories. So does bud light and Coors use enzyme? It's the only way I can see 100 calories at 4 percent is with enzyme? Also that would account for the watery mouthfeel of bud light?

 

[eric19312]

Playing with that calculator it says mine is 4 percent before enzyme, and 130 calories. So does bud light and Coors use enzyme? It's the only way I can see 100 calories at 4 percent is with enzyme? Also that would account for the watery mouthfeel of bud light?

Beta glucanase does occur naturally in malted barley and we do use in it a standard mash. I think your question is about adding extra enzymes to the mash and I think the answer to the question about whether this is done in commercial production of American light lager is yes. I found a few sources including this one https://scienceforecastoa.com/Articles/JNFSF-V1-E1-1002.pdf These beers are also brewed at higher than package strength and watered down to label ABV at packaging.

I do wonder about Bud Light...what about their purity campaign? I don't see enzymes mentioned on the box.

 

[applescrap]

Ok, measured gravity. And it dropped to .998 or whatever it is. Iirc, I threw the enzyme in after fermentation. Crazy. Had a very pleasant apricot smell to it? Tastes exactly like the last batch, same recipe, same process, same ingredients. I could try and convince myself the taste is drier. But doubt i would point that out in blind taste test. Like seemingly every young lager I get acetaldehyde. I wonder if the apricot is just the golden promise? Iirc, that makes this beer that only used 7 pounds of grain 5.7 per ABv. That's pretty rad! It's got a little starsan circle round it.

 

[passedpawn]

Ok, measured gravity. And it dropped to .998 or whatever it is. Iirc,

That's an interesting experiment scrappy. I'm brewing lagers next, might follow your lead on this.

Regarding off flavors, I brewed an octoberfest last spring, kegged it. I drank one of the kegs right away, but (literally) forgot about #2 in my fermentation fridge. It sat all summer and I opened it in the late fall. The flavor changed pretty dramatically. Slight odd fruitiness, presumably from yeast, was gone completely. That stored keg went through several cycles of 65F and 35F while I was fermenting other beers in there. I'll probably do the same thing this year.

 

[Lefou]

It's rumored the Bud folks use an extended mash to get a more highly fermentable wort.
If you're using rice - or corn, like Coors - a 3:1 base malt (like pale 2-row or 6 row) to adjunct ratio with a low-end mash temp that's extended to 2 hours can get you a very nice conversion efficiency.
Adding the enzyme is extra insurance at that point. I've done some silly home experiments with all base malt and low mash temps and have gotten beers down to 1.004 measured with hydrometer before bottle carbing.

 

[applescrap]

Second that. I heard a beersmith podcast on lagers with chris white and he said he puts them in a carboy and doesn't touch them until they are crystal clear. I nursed this last keg along 6 months plus I am getting them pretty filled and it is much better, I perceive anyways. I am definetly enjoying this brut light lager. You should give it a go.

 

[applescrap]

So drinking off this keg heavily. It's nice there remains a perceptible dryness to it, although it seems almost like I put it there vs being there naturally. If that makes any sense and it could all be in my head. Love the strength and not drinking a bunch of carbs. I noticed the bag is huge and you only need a half tsp. This is like a lifetime supply. I could send some to you passed?

 

[passedpawn]

So drinking off this keg heavily. It's nice there remains a perceptible dryness to it, although it seems almost like I put it there vs being there naturally. If that makes any sense and it could all be in my head. Love the strength and not drinking a bunch of carbs. I noticed the bag is huge and you only need a half tsp. This is like a lifetime supply. I could send some to you passed?

Thanks but I'll just Amazon my own. When I do it, I'm going to split the batch and do an apples/apples comparison.

 

[passedpawn]

Miller Lite comes from my hometown in Maumee, OH. If you can tell me why, you win the interwebz.

Oops, forgot to answer my own question. In 1966 Maumee Bay Brewing Company was sold and the company that bought it started brewing a beer called Meister Brau there, and also a Lite version of that. In 1972, Miller bought it all and relabeled Meister Brau Lite as Miller Lite. Yes, this lite beer used gluco-amylase to get rid of all starch and minimize calories. They weren't the first to do this, but close to it ( search Joseph Owades and Gablingers Diet Beer - Owades deserves your attention for sure regarding the current topic).

The whole story is here: Buckeye Beer: The History and Rebirth of Toledo's Second Oldest Company

 

[Lefou]

LMAO
I can recall Meister Brau was a staple in midwestern liquor stores when I was a kid back in the '70's and '80's. Ohio had a lower age limit for drinkers than Indiana did, and it was a regular occurrence to get knackered in Buckeye Land.
Parents looked at me one day after coming back from King's Island after senior year graduation and asked me if I'd been drinking. That was almost 40 years ago and I'm still a lightweight.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Oops, forgot to answer my own question. In 1966 Maumee Bay Brewing Company was sold and the company that bought it started brewing a beer called Meister Brau there, and also a Lite version of that. In 1972, Miller bought the Buckeye brand and relabeled Meister Brau Lite as Miller Lite. Yes, this lite beer used gluco-amylase to get rid of all starch and minimize calories. They weren't the first to do this, but close to it ( search Joseph Owades and Gablingers Diet Beer - Owades deserves your attention for sure regarding the current topic).

The whole story is here: Buckeye Beer: The History and Rebirth of Toledo's Second Oldest Company

Was wondering when you were gonna do that. [emoji122] [emoji482]

 

[verboten]

Lol, I forgot about that question. I visit the reimagined Maumee Bay Brewing Company for a pint “on the way home” from the Jeep plant.

 

[applescrap]

Cool story passed. I dont have time right now but I look forward to reading that later. And looking into Owades. So are you a gator fan or buckeye? I have drank enough hb lagers that I feel all but certain that Coors light is either watered down. Or much heavier in adjunct. I am loving this beer. Strong, low in starch and I only did a 30 min boil because I no chilled it. No problem for hops wanted to maximize isomerization anyways.

I didn't look at my book for liming it. Figured I could throw a wedge of lime in if I wanted. Have done that a few times already. Dont know how it was because that was towards the end of a long day if you catch my drift .

 

[passedpawn]

I brewed a light lager (OG = 1.030, 25% grits) this weekend. Doing an enzyme experiment:

#1: No enzymes added to fermentor
#2: Glucoamylase added to fermentor
#3: Alpha Amylase added to fermentor
#4: Alpha Amylase added to fermentor (same as #3)​

It's bubbling away at 50F, we'll see in a few weeks. I'll have FG comparison then. Flavor/etc will take another couple of weeks I guess.

 

[applescrap]

So cool passedpawn. Cant wait to see what happens. Also how they taste. Are you going to blind triangle them. I did with mine and bud light and was wrong! I had some pizza earlier and was pretty buzzed, I need to try again.

 

[passedpawn]

So cool passedpawn. Cant wait to see what happens. Also how they taste. Are you going to blind triangle them. I did with mine and bud light and was wrong! I had some pizza earlier and was pretty buzzed, I need to try again.

I haven't thought that far ahead. I've never done one of those tests.

I wasn't really trying to make a bud light clone. In fact, I put pound of C40 in there and a pound of wheat to make sure it tasted (and looked) like beer and not urinal.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I haven't thought that far ahead. I've never done one of those tests.

I wasn't really trying to make a bud light clone. In fact, I put pound of C40 in there and a pound of wheat to make sure it tasted (and looked) like beer and not urinal.

Whenever I used enzymes I found it takes a few days to a week to loose that dry-parched-acrid bite. That's after I get it in the keg.

If you detect that taste don't rush to judgement. Wait it out.

[emoji482]

 

[balrog]

@passedpawn - I hate the waiting, but looking fwd to hearing about it
@Schlenkerla - I'm getting my enzymes this weekend in preparation for the SchlenTripHopZymeBeer*


(* based on two years of college German, this would be a real word)

 

[brewshki]

I haven't thought that far ahead. I've never done one of those tests.

I wasn't really trying to make a bud light clone. In fact, I put pound of C40 in there and a pound of wheat to make sure it tasted (and looked) like beer and not urinal.

Sorry to zombie thread this. How did it turn out? I’ve been thinking lately about playing with enzymes in low alcohol beers. I’d like to try and develop a few low alcohol low calorie beers and my research has been pointing me to enzymes.

 

[applescrap]

Sorry to zombie thread this. How did it turn out? I’ve been thinking lately about playing with enzymes in low alcohol beers. I’d like to try and develop a few low alcohol low calorie beers and my research has been pointing me to enzymes.

I am looking forward to the results too. No zombie thread at all. Very much alive and well for me. I am now drinking into the second of five gallons. After drinking 7 g or so I can definitely say I like it and see myself using it on almost everything. If flavor is going to be minimally impacted if at all, it feels like a win win. Lower carbs and stronger beer. I wonder about stouts, etc.. For a light really low calorie beer its seems a must. Hope you give it a try.

 

[NGD]

Hey @applescrap any idea of what the est. kcal is on these beers? Sounds like great summer brew.

 

[bracconiere]

I like it and see myself using it on almost everything.

a'men..

I wonder about stouts, etc..

even better!