Should i use 5.2 mash ph adjuster?

[Hawkfish]

Interesting discussion! Thanks for all the info AJ!

 

[Tekn0ph1sh]

Why not go to your local Wally World and pick up a carbon filter for 20 bucks and run your tap water through it. I bought an RV drinking water filter and some drinking water hose for about 25 bucks. Yes I know it won't remove chloramine but it does remove most everything else untitled I can ge a nice RO system. Beer has been turning out great. Cheers.

 

[ajdelange]

GAC does remove cloramine (and chlorine and organics) but it does not remove bicarbonate, chloride, sulfate, calcium, magnesium, sodium... Thus, while it may be of benefit, it in no way replaces an RO system. Also note that RO systems will contain a GAC filter to, among other things, protect the membrane(s) from chloramine and chlorine.

 

[Ondori]

I immediately regret my decision to add 5.2 to my last beer >_<. I have never used it before, but wanted to try it out and see if it made a difference to my beers. Hope this one does not suck

 

[ajdelange]

Don't worry too much. Phosphate is pretty tasteless and unless you overdosed greatly I doubt you'll taste the sodium. Yes, the beer would have turned out better if you had controlled pH by a more effective means but I'm sure you'll be OK.

 

[gwapogorilla]

I used it in a recent partial mash IPA. So far...it's okay. I opened one after 2 weeks in the bottle. While carbonation was lacking, there was no "salty" taste. I hate salty foods! So, if it's salty...I'll notice.
Anyway, like I said....so far, so good.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

I agree with AJ. You are going to have beer that tastes good but you can do better with other means. Now if you are brewing Belgian beers like I do a lot, I think you can make great beers with the 5.2. The only challenge I have had is getting that really "grainy" flavor I like with light lagers. Seems lagers and lighter ales with clean yeasts mute that flavor with 5.2 or at least it seems that way and I am not sure why yet other than higher sodium. The stabilizer is easy to use but as you progress you are going to find flavor characteristics you are trying to achieve and that is when you have to really buckle down and learn the ins and outs of water. Seems it is not always clear

Now like I have said before, the product did help me get much better efficiency without buying a PH meter. I am still trying to figure out the best and most reasonably priced deal for a PH meter without sacrificing accuracy. Until I do, I will use the 5.2 stabilizer as I can make good beer with it.

 

[gwapogorilla]

I plan on continuing to use it as well. I am only adding 1 Tbl. at the most so I see now harm in it. I am pretty new to the hobby...only been brewing about 4 months now. So I'm still trying to learn other aspects of the hobby...not to mention recovering some of my investment cost. As time goes on, I am sure I will do the water profile/ph tester and the likes of that. But until then, Ph 5.2 is fine with me....even cheaper than buying bottled water to lower the Ph.

 

[ajdelange]

Until I do, I will use the 5.2 stabilizer as I can make good beer with it.

But you can make better beer without it. It cannot improve your beer.

I plan on continuing to use it as well. I am only adding 1 Tbl. at the most so I see now harm in it. But until then, Ph 5.2 is fine with me....even cheaper than buying bottled water to lower the Ph.

As noted above it cannot improve your beer so the fact that it is cheap seems immaterial to me. Adding clean sand to your mash won't hurt the beer either and is even cheaper than 5.2. I have always wondered how 5 Star is able to continue to sell this stuff given that it is, among the knowledgeable at least, widely known to be useless. These last two posts have given me some insight: people don't seem to care!

An interesting new approach uses your i-phone as the meter. The electrode and associated electronics package are available at http://www.hach.com/ph-1-module-for...d-ph-electrode/product-details?id=15010961384 but the cost is $300. As a good (stable) electrode seems to cost at least $100 this looks like a good deal to me but I haven't checked it out.

I couldn't resist and picked one of these up. It is pretty cool, seems to work (haven't done a formal stability test yet) and, best of all - a feature you will use every day I'm sure - let's you e-mail pH readings from the phone e.g.:


Reading from ODM PH sensor:

Time: 5/16/13, 6:21 PM
pH: 4.40
Temperature: 15.7 &#730;C
Coordinates: 38.9447,-77.1579
Location: McLean
Comments: Pils day 7
Ambient temp: 22.3 &#730;C
Millivolts: 145
Calibrated: 5/16/13, 6:14 PM


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Wynne-R]

Ain’t that a kick in the head? You tell ‘em they’re being robbed and they come back for more.

The insidious thing about the magic powder is that it gives people a false sense of confidence. It might prevent them from doing something that, you know, actually works.

It is certainly illegal to make false and misleading claims. Problem is the FTC doesn’t care much.

The FTC concentrates on cases that could affect consumers' health or safety (for example, deceptive health claims for foods or over-the-counter drugs) or cases that result in widespread economic injury.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus35-advertising-faqs-guide-small-business/
So if nobody’s getting poisoned, the FTC has bigger fish to fry.

AJ, the cartridge filters are not GAC (Granular Activated Carbon).They are extruded carbon block, which work a lot better than GAC. No channeling, less pressure drop.

 

[gwapogorilla]

I bought it, it's there, I'm using it...period. It isn't hurting anything, and I sure as heck can't get my money back. I'll do as you guys do...in my own time. Until then, grow thicker skin guys....this really isn't that big of a deal.

 

[ajdelange]

Can't argue against logic like that.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

But you can make better beer without it. It cannot improve your beer.

AJ I realize you are trying to help people but you are speaking without a common frame of reference when something in fact does work. While you believe it doesn't, fact that I do notice a significant difference with it than without it. Even made side by side batches with the same recipes and got two different results with it being the ONLY difference between the two. Now, you are right, there are better ways which involves more investment. I can't drop $100 at a whim to buy a new PH meter. In fact, I usually go as cheap as I can.

Now I am looking at changing this but I have a lot more I need to do. Before I started this hobby, I bought a nice house. Not knowing I was getting in to this hobbies, I did not buy a house around brewing beer. That being said, I have to do some major plumbing work to get around the water softener as it is on the main line and is there because my house runs off a boiler. So I am going to take the cheaper route and get an RO system to clean the water. Even then it will cost to fix that. Yes a ph meter seems cheap to some, not to others. I tried the strips and they are a pain to read colors since I have a problem with some colors. I know I have major PH problems because the strips turn a color I cant interpret.

Before the 5.2 I got 60% eff and really astringent off flavors. Yeast also could not attenuate completely. I mean it was not successful at all. Now I used this stuff and now I have BJCP judges telling me to enter my beers because they like them. I do know it is not the right way to fix the problem so don't think your advice falls on deaf ears. My water has serious problems that need to be fixed with a lot of changes. I have already switched the softener to potassium instead of sodium but I dont have a clean line. Cant wait until I get a good RO system but it is going to be about $500 - $600

When you say you cant improve it with 5.2, you do not know my water. I still have one of the beers I brewed without it. I can rebrew that one with it and send them to you but you would not make it through the non-5.2 bottle.

 

[CA_Mouse]

When you say you cant improve it with 5.2, you do not know my water. I still have one of the beers I brewed without it. I can rebrew that one with it and send them to you but you would not make it through the non-5.2 bottle.

I will agree with this. I can't alter my water system to even add an RO system since I rent. My water is really bad and until I started using 5.2, I was having carbonation and off flavor issues with most of my beers (my stout and dunkle weren't bad, not great though). I tried 5.2 and did a comparison brew using a local APA Kit. Took both back to the LHBS to taste and most of the staff couldn't make it through the non-5.2 sample (3 oz) and all were highly praising the one using the 5.2... Asking if I used different hops/yeast/etc. When I said it was their APA kit in both cases and that the only difference was the 5.2, they were surprised. I've brewed another 8 to 10 times since and only use a tablespoon in my strike water and have seen an increase in efficiency from 63%-68% to 80%+, so in my case, yes it does work to improve my beer. Even from the standpoint of no longer having off flavors, they are much better.

Mouse

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

Don't get me wrong, AJ knows water chemistry at a much higher level than I. I read all of the articles and he is right that you can brew better beer with other methods. The first thing I need to get when I can afford it is a decent PH meter. I just have to find one that will not break my bank. Right now 5.2 is $12 and lasts for 100 gallons. That is about 5 months of brewing. I am figuring a PH meter will be no less than $100 for one that will last. Also you have to get the calibration solution for upper and lower range along with a different storage solution. I generally don't spend more than $30 a month for equipment. Same mash tun, kettle and burner for a long time. Everything I have I built but I cant make a PH meter. I even made a triple stir plate from old computer parts and old wood that turned out to be awesome. Heck I still use a corona mill and get good beer from it.

 

[ajdelange]

5.2 is mostly monobasic sodium phosphate. If you have a water source with pathologically high alkalinity then monobasic sodium phosphate (which is an acid) will move pH in the right direction. Perhaps in such a case there is an improvement in the beer but I cannot believe it is from awful to very good - more likely from awful to drinkable. I have not done tests with everyone's water. With reasonable water the product does not do what it claims to do and with pathological water it can only fall shorter.

On the other hand, Duke Ellington reportedly said "If it sounds good, it is good." Substitute 'tastes' for 'sounds' and I think this applies. If you like the beer you brew with 5.2 then by all means brew with it. I do not really care whether you do or not. If you understand what I am trying to tell you my job is done. De gustibus non est disputandem.

 

[CA_Mouse]

5.2 is mostly monobasic sodium phosphate. If you have a water source with pathologically high alkalinity then monobasic sodium phosphate (which is an acid) will move pH in the right direction. Perhaps in such a case there is an improvement in the beer but I cannot believe it is from awful to very good - more likely from awful to drinkable. I have not done tests with everyone's water. With reasonable water the product does not do what it claims to do and with pathological water it can only fall shorter.

On the other hand, Duke Ellington reportedly said "If it sounds good, it is good." Substitute 'tastes' for 'sounds' and I think this applies. If you like the beer you brew with 5.2 then by all means brew with it. I do not really care whether you do or not. If you understand what I am trying to tell you my job is done. De gustibus non est disputandem.

In my case, I do understand where you are coming from and trying to lead the OP. Since I don't pay for my water (part of my lease) and cannot alter the water system, I have to resort to carbon filtration or add $15 to each beer for purchased water (not an option with 3 kids since I brew a least 5 times every 2 months). Until my 10 year olds move out or I can buy a real house (one that I can make changes to for any reason I want). When I make my next setup change, I already have a pH meter as part of my equipment list. I started playing with my water after my 5th batch because I know I have terrible water and knew that I could make better beer, even if those around me thought the beers were really good. I just entered my first competition ever and eagerly look forward to the judging notes to see where and what I can do with my water in the short time.

 

[ajdelange]

There are many possibilities for you. The first step is to find out how 'terrible' your water is. This is probably best done by sending off a sample to Ward Labs for analysis. They don't charge that much and the results cover the tests of most interest to brewers. It is pretty hard to be specific about what what one should (or shouldn't) do without an ion content report. Sometimes the water is so bad that it really can't be 'fixed' and one is forced to use RO or DI water.

If you have the very high alkalinity water I hypothesized in my last post a potentially workable scheme is to acidify it with phosphoric acid (available from home brew suppliers) to target mash pH (about 5.4) using test strips. These should work well enough for this purpose as you don't have to be exact and you will be testing water - not colored mash. If you are color blind put the sample strip next to the legend on the bottle, take a photo and use your computer's color measurement software to read the pH. If the alkalinity is high you will have to add a lot of phosphate but malt already has a lot of phosphate and phosphate doesn't have much taste. This may or may not work but if the 5.2 is actually improving your beer it is the acid nature of the phosphate salt in it that is almost certainly responsible. Using the acid gives you the phosphate (or more importantly its acid quality) without the sodium.

WRT and RO system: you can install one temporarily using a sink adapter to feed it. You would want to do this at a laundry sink rather than the kitchen sink as it will have to be left connected for some period of time in order to produce the volume of water needed for a brew.

It may turn out that boiling your water will remove a lot of the alkalnity. If you heat a small amount and it turns milky or cloudy this is the case. You need a water analysis to see what the potential of this method might be.

Etc.

 

[firemostale]

Just an update from the OP.


I purchased an RO system and am doing an experiment.

I did 2, 5 gallon batches of a brown mild. One using 5.2 and the other using the to water and advice from the water chemistry spreadsheet and no 5.2.

I have not done any actual pH tests yet, since I am now saving up for a good pH probe. I did manage to use some litmus strips for a baseline of my RO water in the spreadsheet. It was pretty close to neutral, slightly acidic. I used 6.8 as my baseline for the water.


Efficiency for the 5.2 came in at 78 percent and for the non 5.2 it came in At 75 percent. OG was pretty close between the two. Only about .003 between the two. This could be due to not hitting temps exactly the same and different sparge rates. i don't have the most precise system for spaying so repeatability is not exact.

Both samples pitched from the same starter, and they are both still in primary. I probably will let them sit another week before transferring to secondary and taking gravities

I'm exited to see the differences in taste. And will be trying to find this salty flavor spoken of before.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

One of the LHBS I go to has a hand out for those that are new to the AG brewing and it says to add 5.2, maybe it's something with our water? Any how, the last two batches I have used the 5.2....it's too soon to tell if there is a difference or not as the beer is still I the primary.

 

[mcl]

One of the LHBS I go to has a hand out for those that are new to the AG brewing and it says to add 5.2, maybe it's something with our water?

Or the fact that they sell 5.2

 

[Denny]

Or the fact that they sell 5.2

Or ignorance.

 

[LuckyBeagleBrewing]

Or ignorance.

Seriously, this is the most constructive people can be on this board?

Here is my advice. If you are having problems with efficiency or astringent off flavors, and do not want to make a large up front investment, try 5.2. If it makes your beer better then start looking in to getting a water test. There lots of posts on getting water tested. The water chemistry primer is also something you want to read.

If you are not having an issue with you water then I would not use this. If you have all kinds of water problems like me, then you might want to either cut your water with Reverse Osmosis (RO) water. There is a fun spreadsheet called Bru'n Water that will help you a lot once you get a water report.

Look in to a supplemental acid to adjust PH and not the 5.2. You wont get some of the buffering chemicals that may not be desirable and you have probably read the words "salty" in previous entries in this post. You are not going to taste that with 5.2 but you will not be able to get that nice "grainy" flavor you sometimes want. That is the thing I noticed from using it.

I have used 5.2 for a while and only recently have I learned the virtues of water to beer making. When I started all grain I had all kinds of problems and no help like this board. Learn everything you can and use your own judgment.

Now as far as the reason the homebrew shop is doing that. Only speculation but you start telling people they have to have a $30 water report and a $100 ph meter and this and that, people will start saying this is too much of a pain. You then discourage your potential customers that are just starting out. Someone that could later spend hundreds will walk away from a really great hobby. I built my equipment up slowly and still trying to find a decent PH meter.

Come on veteran homebrewers... Be constructive and helpful. No matter how much knowledge you have, that is very easily dismissed as worthless advice when there is sarcasm involved.

 

[ajdelange]

Seriously, this is the most constructive people can be on this board?
Come on veteran homebrewers... Be constructive and helpful.

You should read the whole thread. There is a lot of constructive, helpful and background information.

No matter how much knowledge you have, that is very easily dismissed as worthless advice when there is sarcasm involved.

There is even discussion of the value of sarcasm as a pedagocial device (why do images of my sophomore Latin teacher keep popping into my head?).


As for LHBS's selling the product: it's because the distributor comes to them with a great sounding product that, if it did what it is supposed to do, would really be a boon to home (and commercial) brewers. The LHBS operator isn't, most probably, a chemist, stocks the stuff and sells it and no one, except guys like me come back and tell him it's snake oil. In fact, some, like people who have posted here, think it improves their beer. I can only comment on a scientific basis but as I indicated in an earlier post if you use it and your beer tastes better to you then it is of benefit to you.

The guy that runs my LHBS asked me what the stuff was and whether it worked. After researching it for him and reporting back to him he dropped the product.

 

[Denny]

Seriously, this is the most constructive people can be on this board?

When I stated that ignorance was a possible reason a LHBS would recommend 5.2, it was intended as a serious remark, not meant to be snarky, insulting, or demeaning. Saying someone is ignorant is not an insult, it's an assessment of their level of information. The LHBS could very well be ignorant of the negative effects of using 5.2. They could just buy in to the hype and believe what they've heard without actually doing the testing that some of us have. I choose to not use 5.2 because I've tried it. It reduced my efficiency, did not make my pH 5.2, and left the beer with undesirable flavors. I did this not once, but 5 times to be sure. If the LHBS has not actually done this comparison themselves, they are ignorant of the the facts that were demonstrated to me. That's not an insult, that's an evaluation of their knowledge level.

 

[globe]

Just wanted to throw in that I rent a house i still am able to use a RODI system. Only cost 250 with a 50 gallon brute bucket with a float valve for storage. I did not modify plumbing, connects right to faucet with a valve. That is less than a decent kettle setup so I think its definitely worth it in the long run. So i guess my point its its not crazy to pony up for a RODI system in this hobby when you compare the prices to other hardware.

 

[mabrungard]

When I visited the 5 Star booth at the National Homebrewers Convention in Philly, I glowingly mentioned that I love almost all of their products. But I also mentioned that they are sullying their reputation by selling the 5.2 Stabilizer. When I mentioned this to the owner of my LHBS, she said she had never heard of any problem with the product. She asked me to send her some information on findings showing it didn't work. I'll be sending her results that AJ and Denny report.

Unless there is a loud enough backlash about this product, LHBS owners won't know anything about this problem. I'm doubting that many of them troll the homebrewing interwebs like we do. They are taking the word of an otherwise upstanding company and selling their product. This lack of credible contrary information is something that we need to correct. At present, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Taboot]

I am pretty sure we go to the same LHBS and I inquired how they treat their water and at the time they were using 5.2. This was probably a couple of years ago, so I can't speak to what they are doing now. I bought some when I first switched to All Grain and used it a couple times, but probably wasn't educated enough to know if it made a difference or not.

I forgot it in a couple batches and then pitched it, because I figured it was too old at that time.

 

[dsjohns]

Just an anecdote to provide some noise to the factual discussion.

Brewed Janet's Brown 3 weeks ago and used 5.2 stabilizer from the recommendation of a friend. We are in Boston and are cursed with high pH (9.6), high alkalinity (39.8), and low "hardness" (no specific ions are given). The words on the jar seemed convincing, and I figured it couldn't hurt. Just tapped the keg and the beer tastes awesome, however it ends with a definite salt taste. After a few minutes it almost feels as if I have eaten a saltine. Never had this sort of effect with beers of similar style, and I'm very disappointed. Even more so because I have gone on a brewing frenzy the past 3 weeks and have 3 more beers fermenting that might have similar fates.

I'm not smart enough to say it doesn't do anything for the pH, but I can say that for my water and my preferred styles, it looks to be something to avoid.

 

[firemostale]

OP here....

I definitely noticed and improvement on my mash efficiency, but I also have now noticed a "salty" taste, more if an after flavor where my mouth feels weird after drinking one or two brews.

I am
Ditching the 5.2, and going to a RO system. Quite frankly mash efficiency is not as important to me as taste.

The comparative brews I did. (Identical recipes, on with 5.2 and one without) indefinitely noticed a difference. I'm done with the stuff.