Should I try kegging exclusively for bottling?

[kinjiru]

Hello all,

Desperate times need desperate measures :rockin:.

I've been bottling beer for a two years now with about 10 productions overall and I'm still having a hard time with the bottles. After fermentation, the flavours and aromas are there. After bottling, its all gone. I've tried different techniques thankfully with your advises but I still haven't reached that wonderful result, even after waiting 6 months.

At the end of the day, this is getting really frustrating so after some reading, I've found out that maybe, just maybe kegging could solve my problem.

Since I lack in some space (only have a small freezer for fermentation control), I was thinking in getting a keg, filling it after the fermentation, putting on this freezer, force carb and leave it for a while. After that, bottle the beers and remove the keg so I can make the next beer.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for the help

Cheers,

Rui

 

[chickypad]

Not sure if this is what you are talking about but certain flavors/aromas will fade over time normally - in particular hops and fruit. If that's the kind of flavor/aroma you are losing then waiting 6 months to drink is the wrong thing to do. For the styles you want to drink young kegging can help in that you can force carb and be drinking sooner without waiting for them to naturally carb. So I think you would want to burst carb then bottle pretty quickly. Otherwise I don't see how your plan is going to help if you're still going to age the beer in the keg, unless you are just trying to eliminate the yeast sediment from the bottles. This shouldn't be a big issue though if you pour properly, also helps to bottle clear beer and be careful with racking.

 

[beersk]

I think he's talking about lessening the potential for oxidation through the normal bottling/bottle conditioning process. Kegging will help with that, but unless you have a good bottling technique (counter pressure filler or beer gun) I doubt you'll achieve much better results. You can also do the el cheapo method outlined in BierMuncher's thread, "We no need no stinking beer gun". It works well. It's worth a shot. But maybe just keg your beer, force carb it, drink half or so, then bottle the rest. A 5cuft chest freezer will fit 2 kegs with the co2 tank on the hump. That could work for you.

Overall, I think bottling off the keg would be better than regular bottle conditioning, you'd just have to work out the logistics once you're ready to start rolling and getting a brewing schedule going. I personally think kegged better tastes better than bottle conditioned beer in almost any case, except maybe hefes, Belgians and dark beers.

 

[Subdivisions]

Filling with Biermuncher's filler works great for a 6 pack but I wouldn't want to bottle 5 gallons that way.

OP, if you buy equipment to keg then just get a kegerator or keezer and switch over to the light side and toss your bottles.

 

[kinjiru]

Hello all,

Thanks for the help.

Having a keezer is a little bit difficult due to space limitations. I already have a freezer for the fermenter but there isn't any more space to add the keg's.

But maybe there is another way. How about using a "professional" beer machine? In other works, I could have the keg at room temperature (hide it easily) and the machine would pour the beer at the right temperature Has anyone experienced this way? Compared with a keezer?

Cheers,

Rui

 

[m00ps]

You cant pour beer from a room temp keg or it will be all foam. That's my issue I'm dealing with in kegging is wanting to get about half the volume of some of my kegged beers in bottles for storage and to make room for new kegs. But you need to have it chilled and adjust the psi accordingly to get good results

 

[chickypad]

But maybe there is another way. How about using a "professional" beer machine? In other works, I could have the keg at room temperature (hide it easily) and the machine would pour the beer at the right temperature Has anyone experienced this way? Compared with a keezer?

Not sure what this would be, are you talking about a jockey box? Ignoring for a minute the trouble and expense it would be to keep replacing the ice, those things aren't exactly small. That plus the keg and tank siting out don't seem any smaller than a mini fridge.

 

[eric19312]

I think kegging may introduce new problems in the quality of your beer especially quality of bottles you fill off the keg.

Biggest culprit is oxygen introduced into the beer after fermentation. Oxygen will be introduced when you rack from fermenter into the keg and again when you transfer from keg to bottles.

Bottle conditioning has advantage that the refermentation process reduces oxygen in the bottle as the yeast consumes it. When I keg I normally "bottle condition" in my kegs by adding boiled sugar water in when I fill the keg (I like 6 tbsp cane sugar boiled in 1 cup of water). I then purge the head space 5 times with CO2 and let the keg sit at room temperature for 2 weeks. Yes I could force carb that keg and be drinking it 10 or more days faster but I try to brew often enough to not need to hurry it.

To really exclude oxygen from the keg filling process I think I would need need to flush the keg with CO2, then pressurize my fermenter with CO2 to push the beer from the fermenter into a sealed keg. Can be done and people on HBT do it but it seems to me to be a lot of extra work to get beer 10 days or so faster than I get it.

To fill those bottles with with good oxygen exclusion I think all due respect to Biermuncher you probably do need a counterpressure filler or Beer gun. I use Biermuncher's bottle filler myself but don't expect to get more than 30-60 day shelf life off those fills unless kept cold. If I were entering competitions I'd go ahead and buy the beer gun and do it right.

 

[kinjiru]

You cant pour beer from a room temp keg or it will be all foam. That's my issue I'm dealing with in kegging is wanting to get about half the volume of some of my kegged beers in bottles for storage and to make room for new kegs. But you need to have it chilled and adjust the psi accordingly to get good results

But normally you see craft beers guys using these type of machines with room temperature kegs:

http://www.lindr.cz/products/pygmy-25k

I'm looking to use a model like this one.

 

[kinjiru]

Not sure what this would be, are you talking about a jockey box? Ignoring for a minute the trouble and expense it would be to keep replacing the ice, those things aren't exactly small. That plus the keg and tank siting out don't seem any smaller than a mini fridge.

Its a model like this one:

http://www.lindr.cz/products/pygmy-25k

Its electric refrigerated and it has a connection for Co2 and the keg.

 

[m00ps]

Hmm, that thing baffles me. So you'd need to have the kegged beer carbed at room temp, so like ~30psi, but then I wonder if youd have to drop it to serving temp for a good pour. I've never seen anything like that.....I guess it stores a small reservoir of beer inside it and rapidly chills it

 

[kinjiru]

I think kegging may introduce new problems in the quality of your beer especially quality of bottles you fill off the keg.

Biggest culprit is oxygen introduced into the beer after fermentation. Oxygen will be introduced when you rack from fermenter into the keg and again when you transfer from keg to bottles.

Bottle conditioning has advantage that the refermentation process reduces oxygen in the bottle as the yeast consumes it. When I keg I normally "bottle condition" in my kegs by adding boiled sugar water in when I fill the keg (I like 6 tbsp cane sugar boiled in 1 cup of water). I then purge the head space 5 times with CO2 and let the keg sit at room temperature for 2 weeks. Yes I could force carb that keg and be drinking it 10 or more days faster but I try to brew often enough to not need to hurry it.

To really exclude oxygen from the keg filling process I think I would need need to flush the keg with CO2, then pressurize my fermenter with CO2 to push the beer from the fermenter into a sealed keg. Can be done and people on HBT do it but it seems to me to be a lot of extra work to get beer 10 days or so faster than I get it.

To fill those bottles with with good oxygen exclusion I think all due respect to Biermuncher you probably do need a counterpressure filler or Beer gun. I use Biermuncher's bottle filler myself but don't expect to get more than 30-60 day shelf life off those fills unless kept cold. If I were entering competitions I'd go ahead and buy the beer gun and do it right.

Thanks for the info. I still need to study a little more the pro's and con's before investing.

 

[chickypad]

Hmm, that thing baffles me. So you'd need to have the kegged beer carbed at room temp, so like ~30psi, but then I wonder if youd have to drop it to serving temp for a good pour. I've never seen anything like that.....I guess it stores a small reservoir of beer inside it and rapidly chills it

I think it's basically like an electric jockey box, probably a coil or plate inside.

OP the link's not working, but it's this, right? Looks slick, but dang it's pricey. I guess if you've got the funds to spare it's an option. With the tank and keg sitting out I still don't think it's a huge space saver, unless your goal is to hide them under a table or counter I guess. I think I'd rather have a mini fridge that could fit 2 kegs and the tank.

 

[Owly055]

Kegging represents a significant investment, and requires lots of space, and limits your selection of beer unless you have room for quite a few kegs.

You don't need kegs to force carbonate. The plastic PET bottles can be force carbonated using a carbonation cap. I've gone to the 1.5 gallon tap-a-draft system that comes with 3 1.5 gallon jugs and a tap. It is designed to operate using CO2 cartridges. I've purchased a paint ball gun tank, and an adapter setup to go with it, and have two Tap-A-Draft taps and 6 bottles, and a carbonator cap that works on the bottles so I can force carbonate off my large CO2 tank (cheap) and save on the small one. 2 of the Tap-a-Draft bottles will lay down side by side on the second shelf of my fridge along with the CO2 bottle and regulator (on a slight slope). It works very well for me.

You can also get PET growlers in 32 and 64 ounce, which can be carbonated using a carbonation cap, and I built a device yesterday that allows me to force carbonate 1L EzCap grolsch style bottles. This lets me force carb the Tap-a-Draft, fill bottles, and add some additional carbonation to them. These bottles are incredibly strong, rated at over 100 psi burst.





H.W.

 

[beersk]

Kegging represents a significant investment, and requires lots of space, and limits your selection of beer unless you have room for quite a few kegs.







H.W.

This, but I also think it's a worthy investment that vastly improves the quality of your beer.

Basically, the original post was asking about using kegs as a bright tank only, bottling, and filling again with beer to clear and carbonate, then bottle.
It still requires a freezer with temp controller. Like, I said, worthy investment.
If you can't make that work, then stick with your bottling bucket.

 

[Owly055]

This, but I also think it's a worthy investment that vastly improves the quality of your beer.

Basically, the original post was asking about using kegs as a bright tank only, bottling, and filling again with beer to clear and carbonate, then bottle.
It still requires a freezer with temp controller. Like, I said, worthy investment.
If you can't make that work, then stick with your bottling bucket.

My intent was to point out that there are multiple options, not the two options you offer of either bottling for the small fries, or kegging for the real brewers.

"If you can't make that work, then stick with your bottling bucket"

What the OP was looking for was a way to force carbonate, and reduce the time from grain to glass. You don't need a keg either as a bright tank or to force carbonate.

There are folks who look on extract brewers as if they are of an inferior class

There are folks who look down on BIAB is if it were an inferior process

There are folks who feel real brewers keg and amateurs bottle

In any pursuit there are people who regard their way of doing things as the only reasonable way. In brewing there are many ways to make quality beer. It doesn't require all grain brewing to to make good beer. You can make excellent beer with extract and steeping grains. It doesn't require a three tier system with an HLT, Mash Tun, and Boil kettle............nor does that necessarily make better beer. It doesn't require kegging to make excellent beer. You can spend as much or as little as you want on brewing, but how much you spend does not equate to better beer. That is entirely in the hands of the brewer and how well he knows and manages his system. A good home brewer will make quality beer using whatever tools he has. It's as simple as that.

H.W.

 

[beersk]

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. We've all seen the kegging vs. bottling arguments. I was just throwing in my suggestions. Kegging is awesome, plain and simple. Bottling also has its place. But, brewing a batch, letting it ferment 2 weeks, kegging it and carbonating for 2-3 weeks, say at 35F and 8-10PSI, then bottling the whole keg and making room for the next batch. Seems like a decent way to do it. The only real issue or obstacle there is to get a good method for bottling off the keg.

But I don't think this method is going to be much quicker than fermenting for 2 weeks, then bottling and bottle conditioning. People say kegging makes it so you can drink your beer faster, yeah, maybe if you want to drink beer that isn't ready to drink yet sooner. About the only time this is true is for something like IPA or hefeweizen; and that's if you're burst carbing.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

I didn't read any posts.

For me, kegging solved all the problems that the OP described.

I have had great success kegging, force carbing, then bottling. Hop aroma and flavor stays strong.

You will want the beer to be pretty cold when bottling from the keg, and dispensing at very low pressure. Even with that, you will waste some beer during the bottling process. That, and being slightly tedious, are the only downsides to me.

 

[kinjiru]

I think it's basically like an electric jockey box, probably a coil or plate inside.

OP the link's not working, but it's this, right? Looks slick, but dang it's pricey. I guess if you've got the funds to spare it's an option. With the tank and keg sitting out I still don't think it's a huge space saver, unless your goal is to hide them under a table or counter I guess. I think I'd rather have a mini fridge that could fit 2 kegs and the tank.

eh, eh! I wish! Its like this one but ugly as hell

But it will depend on the final price but its smaller than a fridge and I can hide it easily.

 

[kinjiru]

Kegging represents a significant investment, and requires lots of space, and limits your selection of beer unless you have room for quite a few kegs.

You don't need kegs to force carbonate. The plastic PET bottles can be force carbonated using a carbonation cap. I've gone to the 1.5 gallon tap-a-draft system that comes with 3 1.5 gallon jugs and a tap. It is designed to operate using CO2 cartridges. I've purchased a paint ball gun tank, and an adapter setup to go with it, and have two Tap-A-Draft taps and 6 bottles, and a carbonator cap that works on the bottles so I can force carbonate off my large CO2 tank (cheap) and save on the small one. 2 of the Tap-a-Draft bottles will lay down side by side on the second shelf of my fridge along with the CO2 bottle and regulator (on a slight slope). It works very well for me.

You can also get PET growlers in 32 and 64 ounce, which can be carbonated using a carbonation cap, and I built a device yesterday that allows me to force carbonate 1L EzCap grolsch style bottles. This lets me force carb the Tap-a-Draft, fill bottles, and add some additional carbonation to them. These bottles are incredibly strong, rated at over 100 psi burst.


H.W.

Thanks for the tip

 

[kinjiru]

This, but I also think it's a worthy investment that vastly improves the quality of your beer.

Basically, the original post was asking about using kegs as a bright tank only, bottling, and filling again with beer to clear and carbonate, then bottle.
It still requires a freezer with temp controller. Like, I said, worthy investment.
If you can't make that work, then stick with your bottling bucket.

Yeah, you are right. I'm really having a hard time with the bottles but maybe I should try a few more times with before all this revolution. The lack of space sucks real hard but those are the cards I have and I need to play with them.

 

[kinjiru]

What the OP was looking for was a way to force carbonate, and reduce the time from grain to glass. You don't need a keg either as a bright tank or to force carbonate.

Maybe I didn't explained correctly but my problem is with the bottle fermentation. The flavours are totally lost after bottling and only after about 4-6 months later I can get something looking familiar as a beer flavour. Even with Wheat styles. But even after all this time, it still has a permanent funky flavour.

This process would jump the bottle fermentation stage with kegging in order to finally reach the goal: drink good beer

 

[kinjiru]

I didn't read any posts.

For me, kegging solved all the problems that the OP described.

I have had great success kegging, force carbing, then bottling. Hop aroma and flavor stays strong.

You will want the beer to be pretty cold when bottling from the keg, and dispensing at very low pressure. Even with that, you will waste some beer during the bottling process. That, and being slightly tedious, are the only downsides to me.

Thanks for the feedback As for the bottled beers after kegging: will the carb fade or the aromas/flavours fade over time? If stored at room temperature for latter drinking.

 

[chickypad]

Thanks for the feedback As for the bottled beers after kegging: will the carb fade or the aromas/flavours fade over time? If stored at room temperature for latter drinking.

This will happen to all beers eventually. Room temp speeds up the aging process, and oxygen exposure is also detrimental as has been discussed. I guess I'm just wondering if the bottle carbing is the entire explanation for your problem. You say the beer tastes good going into the bottles, right after bottle carbing they don't taste like beer, then 4-6 months later they are better but still funky tasting? Thinking there might be other things going on.

 

[kinjiru]

This will happen to all beers eventually. Room temp speeds up the aging process, and oxygen exposure is also detrimental as has been discussed. I guess I'm just wondering if the bottle carbing is the entire explanation for your problem. You say the beer tastes good going into the bottles, right after bottle carbing they don't taste like beer, then 4-6 months later they are better but still funky tasting? Thinking there might be other things going on.

Yeah, I believe it is. The problem is that in Portugal there aren't any Home Brew groups to experience all this knowledge. I still believe the main problem is the Yeast. I've upgraded all my gear to produce a better quality beer (excellent OG/FG results, fermentation with temp control, etc), but the bottles are my nightmare. Also tried two different type of Yeast (Brewferm Lager and SafAle WB-06) for the Wheat beer experiment and I can't get a good flavor. My latest experiments have been only Wheat beers because it's cheaper and I can make minor changes from each batch in order to find the problem.

And that's why I'm desperate and maybe the keg could solve the problem.

 

[IslandLizard]

To the OP, if you think oxidation during the bottling process impacts the quality of your beer, try to eliminate as much oxygen from the process as possible, at least for one batch, and see if it improves. For example, if you have (access to) a CO2 tank, you could bottle directly from your fermentor, then purge the small headspace in the bottles with a short blast of CO2, and drop in a carbonation tab or a 1/4 tsp of dextrose, then cap quickly.

Or see if you can team up with someone (e.g., brew club, friends) who has a kegging system and try it that way, before investing. Realize, 100,000s of people bottle successfully and I've never heard of severe quality issues as you experience.

Are you saying the flavor gets better after 4-6 months in bottles? For many styles, aging and bottle conditioning is appropriate but for others (e.g., Pale Ales, IPAs, Wheat Beers) the opposite would be true. I like my Bitters fresh too.

Make sure you don't introduce oxygen during the hot side of your brewing process. It creates staling and off flavors later. Could there be another process flaw that shows up later?

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

Thanks for the feedback As for the bottled beers after kegging: will the carb fade or the aromas/flavours fade over time? If stored at room temperature for latter drinking.

Carbonation level should not be affected.

Hop compounds, on the other hand, are affected by the passage of time even in a sealed vessel. Although as people have mentioned, this is the case with any hoppy beer. To preserve the best qualities, you should drink within a month of bottling from the keg, but depending on the brew, it could still taste "optimal" for longer than that.

BierMuncher's "We no need no stinkin beer gun" thread was where my technique originally started from. Basically you jam a racking cane into the picnic tap, purge the headspace in the keg, set the pressure really low, and then fill the bottles in some kind of basin to catch the overflow. Boom

 

[Owly055]

Why don't I have these problems??

I will repeat that I do really like the poor man's keg system.........Tap-a-Draft, which I use with a paint ball bottle right in the fridge laying down on a slight angle. The adapter to use a Co2 regulator to feed Tap-a-Draft is inexpensive and available on Ebay. Adventures in Homebrewing has a mini-regulator that screws directly to one of these tanks.

The advantages of this system are that it allows you to force carbonate with a carbonation cap or directly from the system, while giving you pseudo kegs that lay down right in the fridge. The 1.5 gallon bottles fit a simple tap with a drop tube, and being only 7.5" diameter, will fit on a lower shelf right in the fridge............no kegerator. My side by side fridge will accommodate 2 side by side and the CO2 bottle, all on the second shelf. The bottles are $10 each........ I don't know how long they will last, but it looks like quite a few fills. In addition the small size means that you can have several choices. Being a single guy, I could easily have 4 of these in the fridge without suffering loss of space for food........But my fridge is pretty large...........Ya gotta prioritize..........food or beer? Which is more important.
Jesus may have been right when he said "Man cannot live by beer alone, but on every word that commeth from the mouth of God" (Translators changed "beer" to bread.......for some reason lost in antiquity..... the original text uses the word shekar which means beer, rather than jhom which means bread). The reality is that we cannot live well on only beer, but it doesn't take much more........ steak, a few veggies, and some fruit.....what more does a guy need ;-)


H.W.

 

[kinjiru]

Hello all,

Well, yesterday I went to my local shop with some samples of my beer so they could analyse what's going on with my production. As a bonus, I got a ticket for my driving skills, so, for the next few months, no keg investing :smack:

Like what you guys said: "Realize, 100,000s of people bottle successfully and I've never heard of severe quality issues as you experience." - I need to know what is going on with my bottles and I'm afraid that kegging may not solve this situation.

Once I get a bigger space then I will invest, with time, on a good freezer and add some kegs to it, not something bought just for testing purposes.

Thank you all for your thoughts, experiences and ideas. Once I find the problem I will inform you guys.

Cheers,

Rui

 

[BrewHound]

In any pursuit there are people who regard their way of doing things as the only reasonable way. In brewing there are many ways to make quality beer. It doesn't require all grain brewing to to make good beer. You can make excellent beer with extract and steeping grains. It doesn't require a three tier system with an HLT, Mash Tun, and Boil kettle............nor does that necessarily make better beer. It doesn't require kegging to make excellent beer. You can spend as much or as little as you want on brewing, but how much you spend does not equate to better beer. That is entirely in the hands of the brewer and how well he knows and manages his system. A good home brewer will make quality beer using whatever tools he has. It's as simple as that.



H.W.[/QUOTE]


Spot on! It's off topic a bit from the OP but this is so right.