Should I shake my bottles immediately after batch priming??

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grndslm

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I enjoy working with a properly mixed solution, because it tells me that I've given the yeasties "stable" working conditions.

Is shaking bottles [even after stirring the priming sugar into the batch] out of the ordinary??
 

bottlebomber

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I was in a situation early in my brewing where I had to shake some bottles as they WOULD NOT carb. As an experiment I agitated several if them, while the others I did not. Although it took a month longer for the un-agitated bottles to fizz, the bottles that I did agitate though nicely carbed tasted like sherry. Strong oxidation notes. Don't do it unless it is essential.
 

blawjr

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Yeah don't do that...
+1

If you rack into a bottling bucket, just pour the priming mix in, and then rack on top of it and let a whirlpool start, this has always worked for me and stirred it up enough on its own. If you absolutely must, you could gently stir it before bottling. But please, don't shake...:mug:
 
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grndslm

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I must stir in order for all the bottles to carbonate properly.

So I figured... why not go the extra mile??

Not a real concern of mine, but curiosity killed the cat and all that. . . . .
 

starrfish

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Shaking will contribute to oxidation. I boil my priming sugar and a pint of water for 1 min to sanitize. Pour priming sugar solution into bottling bucket. Rack finished homebrew on top of sugar solution in bottling bucket this will get a proper mix through out 5 gal. NEVER had an inconsistent carb issues.
 

TBaGZ

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Not to hijack, but I don't want to start a new thread. Will I be OK if I pitched my priming solution half way through racking into the bottling bucket? I forgot to do it when I started. i did not stir or anything, just pitched, finished racking, and bottled.

Thanks,
TJ
 

dawgmatic

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Not to hijack, but I don't want to start a new thread. Will I be OK if I pitched my priming solution half way through racking into the bottling bucket? I forgot to do it when I started. i did not stir or anything, just pitched, finished racking, and bottle.
If you didn't stir gently then there is a chance that you will get some uneven carbonation, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just remember to put the priming solution in first for next time.
 

gavball6

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I have used the Revvy method each time (rack onto half of my priming solution and then pour the other half into bottling bucket when half the beer is left to rack)... Has worked every time and everything has had even carbonation.
 

bottlebomber

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I just pour my priming solution in, and then when the first quart or two of beer is in I gentle swirl the bucket a couple times. Never had an issue.
 

smokewater

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It doesn't take much to mix it well. I add the sugar solution half in the bottom, half at the midpoint and stir gently with a sanitized spoon. I figure as long as I am not whipping up bubbles there is little chance for oxidation
 

zachattack

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I'm not trying to argue, just trying to learn... why would shaking the bottles after capping lead to oxidation? There's a fixed amount of oxygen inside each bottle and I assume it's going to equilibrate anyway after a couple weeks of storage, so if it doesn't get in there initially it will later. Or does that little bit of O2 get eaten by yeast as they reproduce during carbonating (if that's the case I would think it's actually beneficial to get the O2 in there sooner)? What if you use O2 absorbing caps?

Just some thoughts!
 

dawgmatic

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The oxygen is in contact with the beer as it carbs, but its not a large amount of contact. And as the beer carbs up a thin layer of co2 will keep the oxygen away.
Shaking the beer breaks the oxygen up into bubbles. By seperating the globe of oxygen into bubbles, you increase the total contact area between the beer and the the oxygen, which leads to oxidation

You generally don't want to agitate the beer while its conditioning.
 

CastleHollow

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I'm not trying to argue, just trying to learn... why would shaking the bottles after capping lead to oxidation? There's a fixed amount of oxygen inside each bottle and I assume it's going to equilibrate anyway after a couple weeks of storage, so if it doesn't get in there initially it will later. Or does that little bit of O2 get eaten by yeast as they reproduce during carbonating (if that's the case I would think it's actually beneficial to get the O2 in there sooner)? What if you use O2 absorbing caps?

Just some thoughts!
I use O2 absorbing and invert all my bottles once after capping, just to activate the cap lining. I guess you could call that shaking. Doesn't seem to affect my beer. But it doesn't help with carbonation, either, because by the time it's in the bottle it has all the priming sugar it's going to get :D
 

DobrePivo

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I never got any oxidation in my bottle conditioned brews, and I shook them gently every day for the first week. I figure with the reactivation of the yeast, it scrubs any oxygen left...as it would with the initial fermentation. Same goes for my krausened corny kegs, where I'm adding high krausened, actively fermenting, oxygenated wort. *shrug*
 

eastoak

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I never got any oxidation in my bottle conditioned brews, and I shook them gently every day for the first week. I figure with the reactivation of the yeast, it scrubs any oxygen left...as it would with the initial fermentation. Same goes for my krausened corny kegs, where I'm adding high krausened, actively fermenting, oxygenated wort. *shrug*
shake away but there is zero reason to shake bottles (this is the first time i've even heard of this) while they are carbing/conditioning. there is yeast that you see collecting at the bottom of the bottle but there is also lots of yeast you don't see in suspension munching on priming sugar and carbing up your beer.
 

zachattack

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shake away but there is zero reason to shake bottles (this is the first time i've even heard of this) while they are carbing/conditioning. there is yeast that you see collecting at the bottom of the bottle but there is also lots of yeast you don't see in suspension munching on priming sugar and carbing up your beer.
A gentle shake is a good way to bring the yeast back in suspension if you've accidentally let the bottles get too cold and the little guys floc out on you...
 

bottlebomber

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DobrePivo said:
I never got any oxidation in my bottle conditioned brews, and I shook them gently every day for the first week. I figure with the reactivation of the yeast, it scrubs any oxygen left...as it would with the initial fermentation. Same goes for my krausened corny kegs, where I'm adding high krausened, actively fermenting, oxygenated wort. *shrug*
I'm guessing if you were that impatient they were gone in a couple weeks anyway ;)
 

DobrePivo

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bottlebomber said:
I'm guessing if you were that impatient they were gone in a couple weeks anyway ;)
Nah, still have a bunch of them. Read about the technique in a book somewhere. It seemed to help them carb better than just hanging out untouched. As for patience, I gave up on ales for the complexity of lagers. :)
 

bottlebomber

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Oh yeah? Well I gave up on lagers for the complexity of SOURS :drunk:
 

zachattack

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The oxygen is in contact with the beer as it carbs, but its not a large amount of contact. And as the beer carbs up a thin layer of co2 will keep the oxygen away.
Shaking the beer breaks the oxygen up into bubbles. By seperating the globe of oxygen into bubbles, you increase the total contact area between the beer and the the oxygen, which leads to oxidation

You generally don't want to agitate the beer while its conditioning.
I'm not arguing that agitating does anything beneficial in most cases.

But... even if you have a thin CO2 blanket over the beer, O2 will slowly diffuse through to absorb into the beer and reach equilibrium. CO2 isn't impenetrable, and besides basic thermodynamics (kinetic theory of gases) tells us that eventually the CO2 and oxygen in the headspace will mix together. So I'm going to have to disagree with you there, the "protective CO2" layer doesn't maintain itself for long when there's still oxygen present. If you gently pour two soluble liquids of different densities over each other, they'll remain stratified for a little while but eventually Brownian motion causes you to get a well-mixed solution. The same applies to gases.

So you start the process with 0.19 atmospheres of O2 in the headspace (or less if some air was pushed out by CO2 before you cap), and once you carbonate you still have 0.19 atmospheres of O2 in the headspace. The partial pressure isn't going to change, and that means the amount dissolved in the liquid isn't going to change once at equilibrium (Henry's law).

Again, just trying to discuss, not argue!

I don't know much about the mechanism of oxidation, so maybe there's something tricky going on there that I don't understand. I assume when a beer molecule becomes oxidized it chemically reacts with and binds oxygen to itself, taking the O2 out of solution. That means that any O2 dissolved in the beer will slowly get consumed by oxidation, causing more O2 to be pulled into solution to equilibrate. But again, that will happen eventually regardless of agitation. Or is there some reason carbonated beer is less susceptible to oxidation? I know that cold beer won't oxidize as quickly, but that's just due to the lower solubility of O2 at cooler temperature and the slower kinetics of oxidation reactions.
 

dawgmatic

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You are right about the blanket. But I don't think very much oxygen gets absorbed by the beer, if your careful. :(

What happens is that the oxygen molecules take away electrons from the molecules in the beer, primarily the ones that make beer taste great. Then as a result of becoming unbalanced, they can react with the other compounds in beer, producing some compounds that aren't so delicious. I'm not even sure that carbonated beer is better protected from oxidation.

Contact between the beer and oxygen accelerates the process. This is why breweries flush their bottles with CO2 before they cap, and why many of the brewers here never use secondaries. But oxidation is almost impossible to avoid. I'm just not sure of how much is too much, so I feel that one should always err on the careful side.
 
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grndslm

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Contact between the beer and oxygen accelerates the process. This is why breweries flush their bottles with CO2 before they cap, and why many of the brewers here never use secondaries. But oxidation is almost impossible to avoid. I'm just not sure of how much is too much, so I feel that one should always err on the careful side.
I agree with the underlined statement!!

My friend has always been against shaking the fermenters up after initially tossing the yeast, and after racking from secondary to bottling bucket. ALWAYS against "disturbing the brew". I can understand disturbing the trub, but I'm not trying to splash around... I'm trying to make "solution". A nice, EVEN solution.

Shaking bottles is something I'm going to have to try for myself, I guess.

Think I'm actually going to try primary-only fermentation before I try dry-hopping, tho... thanks to this post right here!
 
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grndslm

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I shook maybe 3 bottles of my next to last batch to see it would turn out for myself. One of those bottles - the glass one - is lost in transit, but I'll find it sooner or later.

I used one 32oz and two 24oz Gatorade bottles.

Somehow we had an overcarbonation issue (used same amount of priming sugar, but we used some "super yeast" from a local brewery that had some unexpected results (aka: bombers))... and the only saving grace from this whole experience is that the 32oz Gatorade managed to hold the shape of the flat bottom (unlike the 24oz Gatorades and 64oz Ocean Sprays), and it *also* let out all excess carbonation. It held the carbonation that it needed very well and spit out the excess. It appears to me like these 32oz Gatorades can be reused a number of times, and they're plentiful.

Anyway, back to the topic...

I could definitely notice a hint of wine in the 24oz bottles that were shaken up. I won't be doing this in the future, regardless of the results of the one glass bottle that was shaken up and is now hidden in box somewhere. In fact, I think that my next batch will be primary-only.
 
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