Should I Dry Hop IPA Again After Unstuck Fermentation

[merrydown]

TL/DR: After restarting a stuck fermentation for an IPA that had been significantly dry hopped already, I am wondering if I need to dry hop a second time.

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I am a newbie in beer terms, I have made a fair bit of wine in the past.

I made my first kit an Evil Dog Double IPA kit a few weeks ago. This question/story is about my second batch though.

I made a 2 can kit IPA I found here: http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/sh...ad.php?t=20223 The poster said he fermented down to 1.008. Sounded like a few people tried it and it was good, so I thought I'd have a bash. Foolhardy or ambitious

With the same ingredients and brands, my OG was 1.052 Unfortunately for me, the fermentation stopped/stuck at 1.020.

I had figured it was almost stopped so dry hopped at 1.020 rather than leaving it to 1.010 as I had before. I used about 50g each of Citra and Centennial as I like a hoppy and bitter IPA.

After 3 days I recovered the hop bag and tested the SG again pessimistically. It was still at 1.020.

When I realised it wasn't going to ferment any futher without help I tried:
-Agitating it. No change.
-Adding yeast nutrient. No change.
-Adding a stuck fermentation yeast Gervin GV7 - recommended to me by my nearby brewstore. It's a hardy, but non-killer wine yeast that will ferment ale sugars, even maltotriose (although very, very slowly). No change though.

I then did what I guess I should have done first. I tasted it. It tasted like a lowish alcohol session IPA, good bitters, I wouldn't want it much more bitter. It wasn't sweet. Nearly enough hoppy aroma / flavour too I think. I am not experienced enough to judge from a lukewarm uncarbonated brew if the aroma would be good once bottled, conditioned and chilled.

So I guess the high SG was due to unfermentables in the Light Malt. Hmm, weird the poster got his down so low, perhaps I missed something.

I wanted a higher ABV, more like 6%-6.5% Soooo, I added 800g cane sugar which I hoped would take the ABV to 6.3% if it ferments the new sugar out. I gave it a gentle but thorough stir. Within 5 hours, it has started fermenting like a Gatling gun as you might expect heh heh!

The question is, will all the mucking about, delay, use of an aggressive wine-yeast and extra fermentation after dry hopping, take the hoppy flavour away? Should I dry hop again?

Imagining I should, I have ordered some German Hull Melon Hops. With an Alpha of just 5.5% and stating distinct fruit characteristics including honeydew melon and strawberry flavours.

I figured I'd taste the brew at 1.020 - ish [pressuming that is just before the FG this time] and if it wasn't very hoppy, dry hop with 25-50g of the Huell Melon to fruit up the flavour without adding significant additional bitterness. I think that is about all I can do.

After about 36 hours of fermentation the gases in the bucket are smelling very winelike, perhaps a touch floral. It is probably the smells of vigorous fermentation of grain sugar and loads of co2 given off.

It could be interesting, I hope!? If I do a second dry hopping, at least the hops I have chosen sound like they'd suit a wine-like IPA .

It'll be interesting tasting the fermented product and deciding if I should hop it. I have no idea what this is going to taste like!

UPDATE 26/06/17 It tastes like an ale, hoorah. I am going to go ahead and hop it with the Huell Melon hops and a little Centennial for a couple of days I think the aroma will benefit. Hopefully it won't get noticably more bitter.

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If anyone out there has any similar or relevant experience I'd appreciate your opinions. I appreciate that I might well have created a bit of a car-crash drink here. I'd just like to make the most of my experimental second attempt

Thanks,

Jim

 

[mredge73]

It is common for extract batches to finish at 1.02. One thing that helps them finish a little lower is to add the extract at the end of the boil instead of the beginning as the instructions state.
As far as dry hopping again after drying it out, this is your call. It really depends on how "fresh" you want it to smell.
It won't affect the bitterness or taste much, if at all.

 

[merrydown]

HI,

thanks for the answer. This brew was from a bag of wort and a can of light malt. I guess in this case there wasn't a boil to do this with - unless it is terminology

I read some folks saying that extract kits often finish at 1.020 (though others said it was nonsense heh heh) so I guess that is what happened. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I will know next time.

It is interesting to read what everyone says about bittering during dry hopping. The consensus is definitely that dry hopping does NOT add much in the way of bitterness. I am very new to this and have only been enjoying IPA for a year. Perhaps I am fooled by the aroma into thinking the flavour is affected.

I felt that the brew I did last time was more bitter after dry hopping though. I have read some talk about 'perceived bitterness'. As I say, the weight of opinion and fact on this seems to suggest I am wrong. Though some suggest that there is a bittering effect. I guess this is really only in extreme circumstances with very bitter hops or high quantities of them?

"From a chemical point of view, dry hopping will extract all of the alpha and beta acids in hops. The humulones, lupulones and other volatile oils are isomerized in the alcohol and water (the alcohol dues most of the extraction). Yes, more aroma and flavor will be extracted, but so will bitterness. We dry hop most of the time to add aroma to the beer, so most of the time we dry hop with low alpha acid "aroma" hops. Try dry hopping with Galena, Perle, Simcoe, Challenger, Northern Brewer or other high alpha acid hop. You will get the bitterness!"

https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2017/4/17/yes-dry-hopping-does-add-bitterness-to-beer

I guess I won't fully understand the effects, by observation, until I am doing my own boils rather than using premade wort/extracts only.

 

[mredge73]

The alpha acids won't isomerize in water without persuasion (boiling) but will isomerize in alcohol as you have read. I suppose you could get some bitterness on a high ABV brew if you are sensitive to it.

Perceived bitterness is different for everyone and it is easy to get fooled by the aroma as smell has a lot to do with the way we taste. There are also some odd beers out there that taste nothing like they smell. For example, I have had American pale ales that smell like a high hopped IPA but taste like an English bitter. You can also read a little on first wort hops, hop bursting, and hop stands for different techniques used pre and post boil that have effects on perceived bitterness.

 

[merrydown]

Thanks

I am pretty tolerant of bitterness and I am fundamentally making the IPAs for my own enjoyment. I guess, like many, I want to get good enough results to share without curling any lips.

It is smelling glorious today with the Huell Melon and Centennial. As the Huell Melon that arrived was 2015 stock -_- and the hoppy aroma of the brew was much diminished by the second fermentation, I went wild and added 75g Huell Melon and 50g of Centennial.

I am unafraid, I'm definitely a hop-head and if BrewDog JackHammer isn't too bitter and hoppy for me, I reckon I can't go too far wrong

As ever, thanks for the advice!

 

[merrydown]

Well, another twist...

SG still at 1.020 and hops having been in brew for 3.5 days, little obvious activity, I thought I'd bottle while the hops aroma is nice and high.

So I sanitise ALL the gear I'll need and the bottles. I put the priming dose into the bucket, wrap some straining material around the autosyphon and start her off...

About 3 litres transferred I see what looks like yeast and a bubble in the primary. No, I think, it's been the same SG for three days, there was very little anything on the surface. Another one. Oh nooo. I tap the side of the primary, a load of CO2 bubbles rise to the surface accompanied by another couple of creamy bubbles. AIIIII!

So I am left with a bottling bucket full of what may be a still live ale now with a priming dose, but off the main yeast trubby stuff. Could it just have a lot of CO2 in suspension?

The SG hadn't changed for three or more days. Should I just go ahead and bottle the bugger and worry that I am making grenades?

Or should I wait until the priming dose has fermented out and do some more 3 day apart SG readings. Then presuming it is still the same, rack to another vessel, then back to the bottling bucket (it is already in) reprime and bottle?

I could be worrying over CO2? But, seeing a yeasty bubble suggests to me there is some action still going on. Weird they didn't start showing up until the racking cane was already a few inches into the primary though.

Any advice what so ever in the next few hours would be marvellous :/

It has been such a weird brew

 

[Rob2010SS]

I am extremely new to this so take my advice carefully. If your gravity readings were the same for days apart, I think you're ok to bottle. If it was still fermenting, you would have seen a change in the readings for sure, even if it was only .002. I'd go ahead and bottle if it were me, but again, I'm VERY new to this. My first ever brew is currently being dry hopped.

 

[merrydown]

Hi Rob,

thanks for replying. I think you are right. In the end I waited until the morning and then decided it should be fine, as I have just read you think to.

I will have lost some carbonation by waiting. There was a little froth on the top of the fermenter due to the priming dose. However the liquid was quite saturated with carbon dioxide before I racked it.

So, I am hoping I will get a carbonated - although perhaps less than desired - IPA.

The only reason I suspect that there could be some ongoing fermentation is that when I added the restart yeast I talked to a technician at Gervin who answered two questions.

First, that the wine yeast will convert maltotriose, but very slowly. So if there was anything of that still unfermented, it would ferment it where the ale yeast had not. I think it is unlikely there was any left, but... he added that adding a little enzyme might convert some of the unfermentable starches to fermentable ones. I added some amylase. There could be a slow ongoing fermentation potentially because of this.

On top of this, I have read many say that hops can seem to restart fermentation somewhat. So, if this is true in this can, what I saw may have been some extra gassing and activity due to the hops.

Either way, it is in the bottle now. I just hope I manage moderate carbonation and not insufficient or catastrophic

It's all a journey, I don't mind making mistakes as long as they aren't fatal!

 

[Seattle2k]

In my opinion...don't screw around with your first couple of batches. You're trying too many things. keep it simple.

 

[merrydown]

I get why you would you are saying that Seattle2K. This slalome course of action was because the recipe stuck.

I followed someone else's verified recipe that didn't go according to their account, or the other people who tried it. This was a rescue of a batch interrupted. Extract kit based brews seem so similar to the process of winemaking - which I did for 7 years - that I don't feel that I need to accept a stuck, low alcohol ale as the end result.

Out of this process, I have learned about the sugars in a wort, how brewers use different yeasts, the properties of several hop varieties and the signs of gas saturation and refermentation on dry hopping. I have also found some information about a specific yeast Gervin GV7 Restart Yeast which isn't available on the internet.

For me, that makes it a success Though carbonation is at risk, nothing else can be much of an issue.

Ultimately, if it had gone according to instructions, I wouldn't have gone off piste at all.

 

[mredge73]

First, that the wine yeast will convert maltotriose, but very slowly. So if there was anything of that still unfermented, it would ferment it where the ale yeast had not. I think it is unlikely there was any left, but... he added that adding a little enzyme might convert some of the unfermentable starches to fermentable ones. I added some amylase. There could be a slow ongoing fermentation potentially because of this.

On top of this, I have read many say that hops can seem to restart fermentation somewhat. So, if this is true in this can, what I saw may have been some extra gassing and activity due to the hops.

Wine yeast do not really like maltotriose, they haven't been raised on it like ale yeast. They don't do well in a beer as they don't have enough of the needed enzymes to break it down.

Speaking of enzymes...
You need to be careful with amylase. They cut up starch and other long chains to simple sugars that are easily consumed. The enzymes themselves do not get used up in this process. You don't have a good method to turn these enzymes off so you really need to be sure they have reached their branch limit before bottling. Amylase is a last resort addition to rescue a stuck beer due to errors in the mash process.

Hops appear to restart fermentation because they add oxygen. This oxygen is quickly consumed and scrubbed out in most instances.