Shortest time to ferment before kegging?

[stanley1271]

I was wondering what the shortest length of time a recipe (see below) would have to sit in a fermenter. From what I have read the main fermentation takes place in about 3-5 days +/- some days for the fermentation process to start. So the rest of the time in the fermenter, such as leaving it there for a month, is to let all the sediment to fall to the bottom and make the yeast cake, correct?

Part of this is due to my lack of patience, but it is also due to not having the room right now. I am going through the house and re-organizing things to make room for the new toys (keezer, fermentation box, etc.), but in making room I am having to put things in the back room where my fermenter is currently at. Since my wife and son have no clue about the fermentation process they think it's ok to just throw things in the back and since there was space where the plastic bucket was thing got thrown around and on it. Thankfully nothing broke or spilled, but until I can build my fermentation chamber I need to make this batch work as fast as possible.

This Saturday will make 2 weeks in the fermenter. Would it be ok to rack it into a keg and do a set-and-forget method of carbing?


::Recipe::
3.30 lbs Golden Light Liquid Malt Extract
3.00 lbs Golden Light Dry Malt Extract
4 oz 60°L Crystal Malt
1 oz. Nugget Hops (45 Mins)
1/2 oz. Perle Hops (15 Mins)
1 oz. Cascade Hops (15 Mins)
1/2 oz. Cascade Hops (dry hop)
1 tsp. Irish Moss
Wyeast 1056 American Ale or 1098 British Ale

 

[BendBrewer]

As long as gravity readings are stable sure. Nothing wrong with conditioning it in the keg.

 

[MalFet]

Trying to set rules about time won't do you much good, as the process is sometimes unpredictable. Draw a sample, taste it, and take a hydrometer reading. That's your real gauge.

 

[stageseven]

Sounds like you need to RDWHAHB. Unless your wife and son are literally going in there and shaking your fermenter around, knocking out your airlock, or throwing heavy objects at the bucket, they aren't going to hurt your beer. If it really bugs you, just ask them nicely not to put anything on top of your fermenting bucket. You definitely don't want your wife to start having a reason to resent your brewing hobby.

On topic, you are correct, there's nothing that requires you to keep the beer in the fermenter vs the keg once fermentation has finished (verified by hydrometer readings) other than allowing it to clear. However, I'll warn you from first hand experience that if you rack to keg early, be prepared to be sucking up yeast for the duration of the keg. My first kegged batch was a wheat that I only left in the fermenter for a week or week and a half. I kegged and carbed, and 2 weeks later started pulling off the tap. Every time I went more than a couple hours between pulls for the entire month and a half it was on tap, I'd get a cloudy, sometimes a little chunky pour on the first pint. When the keg finally kicked, there was about a half inch of sediment pooled in the bottom of the keg. All that was yeast that settled out of suspension inside my keg, and was getting sucked up the dip tube a bit at a time whenever I poured. If that doesn't bother you, go for it, but I decided to make sure my beers cleared thoroughly before kegging from now on.

 

[Seamus]

Sorry if I sound harsh but this is classic forum mentality. You've managed to learn what a keezer and fermentation chamber are and probably how to build them but haven't learned anything about fermentation.

I'll leave the hydrometer speeches and "needing" to primary for a month to others but I'd suggest you start your construction with a brewing library.

 

[stanley1271]

Thanks all. I will start keeping an eye on the gravity for the next few days. I checked it yesterday, can't remember what it was but I know I wrote it down. So if things stay steady I will just keg it.

@Seamus -I am sure you don't mean to be harsh, but if I did not come here for clarification and I didn't fully understand what I ready, how then would one go about learning something like this? Yes I have learned how to build my fermentation chamber and yes I have my keezer just about set up. When I come here I do so only after I do research and I am asking for clarification from those I deem experts or at least near experts. I could turn the same post around to you in that you know how to post on a forum, but haven't learned how to create one, but I'll leave the programming lessons on the programming forums. Sorry if I seemed harsh in return.

-Stanley

 

[Seamus]

Thanks all. I will start keeping an eye on the gravity for the next few days. I checked it yesterday, can't remember what it was but I know I wrote it down. So if things stay steady I will just keg it.

@Seamus -I am sure you don't mean to be harsh, but if I did not come here for clarification and I didn't fully understand what I ready, how then would one go about learning something like this? Yes I have learned how to build my fermentation chamber and yes I have my keezer just about set up. When I come here I do so only after I do research and I am asking for clarification from those I deem experts or at least near experts. I could turn the same post around to you in that you know how to post on a forum, but haven't learned how to create one, but I'll leave the programming lessons on the programming forums. Sorry if I seemed harsh in return.

-Stanley

Sorry if my post offended. I was tying to point out the skipping of fundamentals in the forum "how to" type learning process. Knowing how to do something and knowing why you do it are two different things.

 

[Sacdan]

Sorry if I sound harsh but this is classic forum mentality. You've managed to learn what a keezer and fermentation chamber are and probably how to build them but haven't learned anything about fermentation.

I'll leave the hydrometer speeches and "needing" to primary for a month to others but I'd suggest you start your construction with a brewing library.

That's why he asked the question. You shouldn't slam a guy who is asking questions.

 

[MalFet]

Sorry if my post offended. I was tying to point out the skipping of fundamentals in the forum "how to" type learning process. Knowing how to do something and knowing why you do it are two different things.

With brewing, it's all "how to", particularly when talking about yeast. We talk extensively here about how to manipulate fermentation characteristics by controlling yeast and environment, but it's all just correlative observations. Our collective understanding of yeast metabolism in a beer fermentation environment is poor, and our understanding of yeast population dynamics is worse.

No need to chide him for being new. Doing is learning here. As his experience grows, he'll learn more (or he won't). We all ask practical questions about things we don't fully understand. I seem to remember a certain question not long ago about frozen yeast vial size...

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

FWIW, I almost never leave beer in a fermenter for more than two weeks unless I'm just being lazy. Generally, it's not necessary.

If your fermentation took off relatively quickly (within a day or two), most of the time the yeast have done all they're going to do by two weeks time. If the yeast were going to finish fermenting then they very likely already have; if the yeast were going to stall then they very likely have already stalled and are not going to ferment any more anyways (at least not without assistance). And any 'cleaning up' should be done by then.

But measure your gravity as suggested above.

There are no dumb questions...only dumb answers.

 

[chevelle383]

Spanish...
I prefer "there are no stupid questions, only stupid mistakes"

 

[Seamus]

With brewing, it's all "how to", particularly when talking about yeast. We talk extensively here about how to manipulate fermentation characteristics by controlling yeast and environment, but it's all just correlative observations. Our collective understanding of yeast metabolism in a beer fermentation environment is poor, and our understanding of yeast population dynamics is worse.

No need to chide him for being new. Doing is learning here. As his experience grows, he'll learn more (or he won't). We all ask practical questions about things we don't fully understand. I seem to remember a certain question not long ago about frozen yeast vial size...

I said I didn't mean to be harsh and that's where I should have thought more about my post. I really didn't mean to be offensive, my point was missed due to poor execution. I understand people use forums to learn but conventional methods are still more than valid. I sometimes forget the amount of understanding you wish to have in something is a personal choice.

 

[bobish]

So I've only been brewing for a year now and i do mostly extracts or partial mashes...going to try my first all grain this weekend if all goes well.

To your point of getting the fermentation to hurried up. One thing I'm experimenting with is just pouring my wort on top the yeast cake in my primary(i did remove half the yeast cake). To be honest i did this for the first time last night and with in 2 hours my peculator was going nuts. It normally takes a good 48 hours until i see that kind of action. So it's my guess that i can speed up my fermentation by at least 46 hours for this batch. Which means i may be able to keg it in 2 weeks maybe less even with 5-7days dry hopping.

So there have to be a few other ways to speed up fermentation. I thought I've heard brewers at places like Stone say they can complete primary fermentation in 72 hours or so. With proper Yeast prep and temp controls you should be able to speed things up.

 

[stanley1271]

Well yesterday and today the hydrometer reading was 1.010. Kit says it should be 1.015. Now I looked at the hydrometer and it is calibrated at 60 degrees F. Right now the room the fermenter is in is around 70 at the highest. It is getting warmer in there though as we get into spring so I am planning on kegging in the next couple of days. So if the wort temp was around 70 and the calibration is done at 60 I would add 1 point to the gravity right? I believe thats what the hydrometer said.

I have to say that when I tasted it last night I was quite pleased. I cannot wait to put it in a keg.

-Stanley

 

[MalFet]

Well yesterday and today the hydrometer reading was 1.010. Kit says it should be 1.015. Now I looked at the hydrometer and it is calibrated at 60 degrees F. Right now the room the fermenter is in is around 70 at the highest. It is getting warmer in there though as we get into spring so I am planning on kegging in the next couple of days. So if the wort temp was around 70 and the calibration is done at 60 I would add 1 point to the gravity right? I believe thats what the hydrometer said.

I have to say that when I tasted it last night I was quite pleased. I cannot wait to put it in a keg.

-Stanley

Sounds good! The 1 point increase for 70F sounds about right, but those numbers can vary from model to model. The FG numbers printed with your kits are always just estimates, and being off by a couple points isn't a huge deal. If it tastes good and you have steady gravity, you are ready to keg!

 

[schia]

I'm brewing an OSH from Orfy's library and its been a month in the primary and I plan to leave it there another month trusting that time and patience will do it justice.

Search this forum and you will find lots of past post suggesting that you leave your brew in the primary for a longer period.

 

[TheMan]

You could always just cold crash it to get everything to settle out. You have a freezer after all. Then you can siphon off of the sediment easier.

Also, there is a "10der and mild" thread around here. A few of the members brewed 10 day grain to glass milds to see how it went. I made one on my own and it was ok. After a few weeks of aging it was even better. My point is you can rush it to keg, but give it some time to age and it will likely be alright.

 

[remilard]

Search this forum and you will find lots of past post suggesting that you leave your brew in the primary for a longer period.

But from a vocal minority. At some point you have to determine on what basis you take advice. If it is first from those who are vocal on a particular corner of the internet, then you should adopt month long primaries uncritically like many have.

 

[Yooper]

I always leave my beers in the fermenter 2 weeks or so, sometimes three. Not longer, unless I'm doing something special like oaking it.

It seems like we went from people bragging that they leave their beer for 3 days in the primary to four weeks or more, but really no science to back it up. Sure, it won't hurt the beer to leave it sit in the fermenter for four weeks, but I think saying that people "must" do anything is silly.

The reason to keep the beer in the fermenter a little longer isn't just for clearing- the yeast itself will start digesting its own waste products like diacetyl when the fermentable sugars are gone. The acetaldehyde present in "green" beer will fade to as the beer conditions. Then of course, the trub layer will compact a bit and suspended proteins and spent yeast will fall out.

What I'm saying is that while a very long primary won't hurt the beer, the benefits of two weeks vs. four weeks aren't been proven. Do what seems reasonable and comfortable to you. The nice thing about being a procrastinator is the beer is better!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Spanish...
I prefer "there are no stupid questions, only stupid mistakes"

Yeah, I do that plenty as well.

 

[samc]

So I've only been brewing for a year now and i do mostly extracts or partial mashes...going to try my first all grain this weekend if all goes well.

To your point of getting the fermentation to hurried up. One thing I'm experimenting with is just pouring my wort on top the yeast cake in my primary(i did remove half the yeast cake). To be honest i did this for the first time last night and with in 2 hours my peculator was going nuts. It normally takes a good 48 hours until i see that kind of action. So it's my guess that i can speed up my fermentation by at least 46 hours for this batch. Which means i may be able to keg it in 2 weeks maybe less even with 5-7days dry hopping.

So there have to be a few other ways to speed up fermentation. I thought I've heard brewers at places like Stone say they can complete primary fermentation in 72 hours or so. With proper Yeast prep and temp controls you should be able to speed things up.

I learned something new today. It sounds kind of dirty but "peculator" is actually a word, although not what you intended.

btw - to the point, I am a strong advocate of Tasting everything and learning to know when it is done by that. Obviously in concert with a Hydro reading.

 

[Yooper]

Back to the concept of "hurrying" beer-

Some beers, such as the mild mentioned earlier, are easily moved to packaging quickly. As a rule, a lower OG beer with not-complex flavors is fine to rush a bit. A mild, hefeweizen, simple APAs, etc are usually very drinkable in two-three weeks from brewday. Higher OG beers need more time usually, and beers with complex depth take even more time to mellow. Using roasted malts, oak, etc, means that the beer may take time to flavors to meld and smooth out.

When I want beer in a hurry, a cream ale is a good one! It's better with cold conditioning but I can brew today and be drinking it in two weeks. We did that with the "10der and mild" swap- brewed, kegged, and got the beer out the door in 10 days- and the beer was good!

Using a flocculant yeast helps, too. A beer with a low OG, relatively simple grain bill, and flocculant yeast can easily be done in just a few days. I can't think of any advantage to keeping such a beer in the fermenter more than a week or two.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Sure, it won't hurt the beer to leave it sit in the fermenter for four weeks...

Just to play devil's advocate Yooper; are you sure? I'm not necessarily talking about autolysis but more along the lines of KingBrian's British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts... thread.

Is it possible some beers are better off with a relatively short fermentation followed by cooling to sort of 'lock it in'?

I'm also curious if extended time on the yeast (or too short a time on the yeast) can affect head retention.

 

[Yooper]

Just to play devil's advocate Yooper; are you sure? I'm not necessarily talking about autolysis but more along the lines of KingBrian's British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts... thread.

Is it possible some beers are better off with a relatively short fermentation followed by cooling to sort of 'lock it in'?

I'm also curious if extended time on the yeast (or too short a time on the yeast) can affect head retention.

Well, I meant "harm" as in autolysis or other things that can ruin the beer. I would say high temperatures would definitely encourage autolysis, and I wouldn't keep any ale on the trub in hot conditions. But there are definitely some other flavors- I'd consider them nuances- that may be lost, or maybe some nuances that might come. I am no microbiologist, so I have no idea when a beginning of autolysis might start, stop, etc. but I'm sure it's not that every yeast cell starts autolyzing in XXX days. Pressure, temperature, yeast health, the amount of alcohol, the amount of yeast, etc, will all impact the process. A beer suffering from many of the yeast autolyzing will be horrible- fecal in smell. But what about if .05% of the yeast are autolyzing? 1% 10%?

In winemaking, experienced wine makers will allow the wine to sit sur lie, which is sitting on the lees, to give it a certain "something". However, the lees are stirred and the wine just doesn't sit there while the yeast autolyzes. Everyone will tell you that aging sur lie will give the wine a certain "je ne sais quoi" flavor and depth. Or it can ruin the wine!

I would say the same is true of beer- but at what point does an added nuance become good, or bad? At what point to you say that the clarity is more important than the flavor, or vice versa? At what point do you gain or lose this nuances?

I would like to see some actual scientific evidence of all of this, rather than me saying, "Well, I leave my beers in the fermenter for two weeks and make great beer!"

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I would like to see some actual scientific evidence of all of this, rather than me saying, "Well, I leave my beers in the fermenter for two weeks and make great beer!"

Bingo! That's exactly what I would like to see too, this hobby seems to have a ton of those anecdotals. That's the only reason I questioned the '4 weeks' statement. Sometimes yeast make decent beer in spite of us humans.

Good analogy about the wine. In that thread I linked, one of the challenges they encountered was stopping the fermentation after sufficient diacetyl had been removed but before some other 'nuances' had been. And similar to DMS in lagers; while diacetyl (or DMS) is generally thought of as a flaw, some low levels of it can actually benefit the beer.

 

[stanley1271]

Well I would like to see some scientific evidence that I can understand. I dared to go into the Brew Science forum and left with a headache. Those guys/gals just hurt my brain trying to follow them.

I will of course keep researching the subject and have added Cold Crashing to my list of research items.

So I re-read my OP and noticed I left out one other reason I am looking to speed this up and that is due to the fact I am in Florida and it is starting to warm up. The room it is in is already at about 70 degrees. I have a dorm fridge that I am planning on making into my fermentation chamber in the next few days.

So from what I am getting from you guys/gals here is that there is no scientific evidence that supports the long stay in the fermenter. It is proven by many that their beer comes out great when they leave it in the fermenter for 4 weeks or more, but with the fermentation process actually being over in about a week, it should be ok to try a cold crash or even just kegging at that point.

At this point I have no intention on going with a high OG brew. I think there is plenty for me to learn doing lower OG, simple brews. Once I know my fermentation box will hold at a nice 65 - 70 and I know that I can carb my beer properly in a keg, then I might step up to something a bit more complex. Those are my main concerns right now.

My next book to read is Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation. So hopefully after that I can come back here and annoy you all with even more questions.

Until then I will be asking more questions in other sections here.

 

[pjj2ba]

Well, I meant "harm" as in autolysis or other things that can ruin the beer. I would say high temperatures would definitely encourage autolysis, and I wouldn't keep any ale on the trub in hot conditions. But there are definitely some other flavors- I'd consider them nuances- that may be lost, or maybe some nuances that might come. I am no microbiologist, so I have no idea when a beginning of autolysis might start, stop, etc. but I'm sure it's not that every yeast cell starts autolyzing in XXX days. Pressure, temperature, yeast health, the amount of alcohol, the amount of yeast, etc, will all impact the process. A beer suffering from many of the yeast autolyzing will be horrible- fecal in smell. But what about if .05% of the yeast are autolyzing? 1% 10%?

I would say the same is true of beer- but at what point does an added nuance become good, or bad? At what point to you say that the clarity is more important than the flavor, or vice versa? At what point do you gain or lose this nuances?

At a purely scientific level, yeast will begin to autolyze as the culture enters the stationary phase. When culturing microbes, there is a lag phase, an exponential growth phase followed by a stationary phase. The brewing equivalent of stationary phase is at the end of active fermentation, typically when the krausen falls (which can be as short as 3 or 4 days for a low OG beer with a fast yeast). At this point, autolysis is taking place - scientific fact.

In my opinion, if there are enough yeast in suspension to carbonate a beer, then that is enough yeast to clean up any undesireable byproducts. If fermentation is complete, then bottle/keg it and let it age further there as needed/desired. I see no need to leave it on the cake for a longer period. If someone wants to leave it on the cake longer that is fine too. It's your beer.

Like the wine example, it is a balance. I think to get STRONG flavors from autolysis, the beer has to be poorly handled, and mostly likely the nasty flavors come from other microbes dining on the lysed yeast (all our beers have a few non-yeast microbes in them). I do feel that in a properly handled beer, leaving the beer sur lie will impart some flavor to the beer. Depending on the beer style, it might be totally covered up by other flavors. It will be more obvious in lighter/simpler styles. Add to that personal preference. Some folks are more sensitive to it, some don't care, some like it.

 

[TheMan]

Well I would like to see some scientific evidence that I can understand. I dared to go into the Brew Science forum and left with a headache. Those guys/gals just hurt my brain trying to follow them.

I will of course keep researching the subject and have added Cold Crashing to my list of research items.

So I re-read my OP and noticed I left out one other reason I am looking to speed this up and that is due to the fact I am in Florida and it is starting to warm up. The room it is in is already at about 70 degrees. I have a dorm fridge that I am planning on making into my fermentation chamber in the next few days.

So from what I am getting from you guys/gals here is that there is no scientific evidence that supports the long stay in the fermenter. It is proven by many that their beer comes out great when they leave it in the fermenter for 4 weeks or more, but with the fermentation process actually being over in about a week, it should be ok to try a cold crash or even just kegging at that point.

At this point I have no intention on going with a high OG brew. I think there is plenty for me to learn doing lower OG, simple brews. Once I know my fermentation box will hold at a nice 65 - 70 and I know that I can carb my beer properly in a keg, then I might step up to something a bit more complex. Those are my main concerns right now.

My next book to read is Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation. So hopefully after that I can come back here and annoy you all with even more questions.

Until then I will be asking more questions in other sections here.

Leaving the beer in the fermenter 2 weeks and then kegging/bottling doesn't really change the fact that it likely needs to age a little anyway. Leaving it for 4 weeks and then kegging/bottling kind of just shortens the period in which you need to leave the beer to age since it's gotten an extra 2 weeks over the other method. Your pretty much just doing the aging in a different vessel.

There are obviously certain beers like the ones Yooper mentioned that are exempt from this, but any decent gravity brew will need the same period of time to age regardless.

 

[MalFet]

So from what I am getting from you guys/gals here is that there is no scientific evidence that supports the long stay in the fermenter. It is proven by many that their beer comes out great when they leave it in the fermenter for 4 weeks or more, but with the fermentation process actually being over in about a week, it should be ok to try a cold crash or even just kegging at that point.

Yes and no. This debate has a long history, and a lot of the noise that gets shouted at new brewers (from both sides) invokes things that are much larger than the particular batch at hand. Back in olden times before Twitters and Lady Gagas, there was a belief that leaving your beer on the yeast cake for more than absolutely necessary would quickly lead to yeast autolysis and make your beer taste like meat soup. But autolysis is something of a boogey-man: often talked about fearfully, rarely seen. It's not clear whether or not autolysis was ever a problem: maybe it was always just more hype than reality, but then again maybe we were using less healthy yeast back then. In any case, most experienced brewers would now say that you can leave your beer on yeast for weeks and even months without any problems (and by problems here I mean gross flaws, not the kinds of nuance SpanishCastleAle is talking about).

The trouble is, this "leave your beer on yeast for four weeks" quickly became a dogma in its own right. Part of this is just caution. Bottling too early can lead to real problems, but bottling too late generally can't. If somebody (particularly somebody impatient) doesn't know how to tell if beer is ready to bottle, telling them to leave it alone for another couple of weeks falls into the category of "can't hurt, might help".

Part of it, too, is process. Experienced brewers can generally produce better beer faster than new brewers for a diversity of reasons: better pitching rates, tighter temperature control, cleaner wort production, more ability to perceive flaws, etc. Time heals a lot of wounds in beer. New brewers can often patch up technical mistakes by giving the beer a few extra weeks to age, even if the ultimate goal should be to avoid these mistakes in the first place.

At the end of the day, any rule of thumb — whether it advocates 10 days or 40 — should be secondary to your actual observations: gravity readings and taste. I don't generally notice much improvement between two and four weeks, but once in a while I'll find a flaw that just needs some time to mellow out. For people who want to be mechanical about the process, four weeks is safer than two, especially when starting out. But, you'll always be better off asking the beer how much time it needs than asking us. Taste your beer as it ages, and ideally keep some notes. Time is just another variable in your brew process.

Enjoy the Yeast book; it's great.

 

[chevelle383]

Do yourself a favor and wait 2 weeks. As already mentioned by me and others, I normally cant taste the difference fom 2 weeks to 4 weeks. ( it has happened though...stouts and other heavy beers) But I have always been able to taste "greens" in 1 week old beer. I personally am a believer that after primary fermentation is done, the yeast starts eating byproducts of them themselfs in the following week and that is why the extra week makes such a difference. Anymore I mostly just keg between 2-3 weeks and almost never regret it. cheers.