Short Lag Time

[brewNYC]

so, I have been experiencing long lag times with my last 3 brews, and tried some techniques with yesterdays batch to shorten this a bit. First, I pitched my yeast at 80 degrees (5 degrees over the recommended range), second I intentionally over-pitched my yeast (by about 75 percent). As a result, I had virtually no lag time with this batch (about 1hour before I started seeing co2) Wondering if anyone has experienced this before? Are there any detrimental effects on the quality of the beer caused by having virtually no lag?

Here is the recipe (2.5 gal batch)
8lbs Pilsner
5 oz flaked corn
2 oz aromatic
3 oz crystal
8oz candi sugar
Gypsum, epsom, cal chloride and lactic acid added to distilled mash water. PH = 5.3
(hops, orange peel, etc)

I used wyeast 3944 (Belgian wit). Recommended temp range is 62-75
Built cell count up with a starter to 180b, about 150-175 percent of what is needed with 2.5 gallons of 1.070 wort. Pitched full starter at high krausen.

Process:
2pm- chilled wort to 80 with wort chiller, transferred to carboy, hit with 60 seconds O2
3pm- pitched yeast at 80, put in fermentation chamber
4pm- temp had cooled to 75, slow bubbling
5pm - temp had cooled to 72, moderate bubbling
6pm - temp had cooled to 68 (target temp), moderate bubbling

8am (next day) -temp at 68, moderate to rapid bubbling (not at full krausen yet). Gravity down 4 points (so, about 7 percent attenuated)

I suppose the quick start could be due to the candi sugar, the warm pitch, over-pitching the yeast, or pitching an actively fermenting starter. In any case, it started a lot faster than I anticipated. I know that it’s been pretty well proven that pitching slightly warm (10 degrees over target) is not an issue, as long as you cool to target temperatures by the end of the lag phase, but typically you still see a 3-8 hour lag. Any opinions why mine started so fast? Do you think I will see any effect on the beer?

 

[kingmatt]

How long is "long" for your prior lag times? Longer lag times are not necessarily an issue as long as your sanitation is good.

Pitching at a temperature warmer than your yeasts comfort zone and overpitching can certainly cause off flavors (though not guaranteed).

 

[brewNYC]

How long is "long" for your prior lag times? Longer lag times are not necessarily an issue as long as your sanitation is good.

Pitching at a temperature warmer than your yeasts comfort zone and overpitching can certainly cause off flavors (though not guaranteed).

24-48 hours, if I pitch 2 degrees below the lower end and slowly warm up.

Any idea how much you have to overpitch to cause off flavors? Nobody seems to talk about that much.

 

[isomerization]

How long is "long" for your prior lag times? Longer lag times are not necessarily an issue as long as your sanitation is good.

Pitching at a temperature warmer than your yeasts comfort zone and overpitching can certainly cause off flavors (though not guaranteed).

What are considered off-flavors in one style may be desired in another!

Effects from pitching above temp are dependent on the amount of yeast introduced as well, with under pitching at high temp likely resulting in a more drastic increase in potential “off-flavors”.

 

[archthered]

My take on your questions-

Wondering if anyone has experienced this before? Are there any detrimental effects on the quality of the beer caused by having virtually no lag?

Yes to the first part- I had a malfunctioning temp sensor and I had a huge starter and by beer went absolutely nuts, but it was still good beer.

The second part is a bit of a yes and no- In my case above it was no issue and I don't think it will be for you. You definitely run the risk of off flavors, though keep in mind isomerization is exactly right that off flavor is subjective and style based and with this yeast and style there is probably little issue there. It's not that a short lag is inherently bad but it means that the yeast are going crazy reproducing etc quickly and without restraint which can cause them to make more compounds typically considered undesired. If you tried the same thing with some kind of lager you may have so much diacetyl that the yeast can never clean it or so much sulfur it's undrinkable, though again that will depend on yeast strain. You can have short lag without those problems under the right circumstances but a short lag runs a risk. Personally I don't mind a long lag, as long as it's not too long, though I do try to keep it short by increasing the pitching rate etc.

And to address this-

I suppose the quick start could be due to the candi sugar, the warm pitch, over-pitching the yeast, or pitching an actively fermenting starter. In any case, it started a lot faster than I anticipated. I know that it’s been pretty well proven that pitching slightly warm (10 degrees over target) is not an issue, as long as you cool to target temperatures by the end of the lag phase, but typically you still see a 3-8 hour lag. Any opinions why mine started so fast? Do you think I will see any effect on the beer?

Yes the candi sugar go them going pretty well, alot of people sugest not adding sugars until after the yeast have calmed down a bit, after high krausen, because the yeast can get lazy and not attenuate well after pigging out on straight sugar leaving you half fermented beer (I've done both ways with no problem but tend to add late just to be safe).

Yes the warm pitch was part of it, possibly the biggest part, and possibly the part that could have the biggest negative effect on flavor but I already went in to this. I know you said it's been "proven" that pitching warm is not an issue but I really think it's more complicated than that, remember commercial breweries often pitch colder than their target fermentation, between the cost of chilling and added time I can't imagine they would do that if they didn't feel it was better. Another issue some might bring up here is that you may be shocking your yeast too much, which also causes off flavors, by taking them from roomish temp, up to 80, and back down to your target temp.

Yes over pitching also had a big impact on lag and a high yeast count is how most people try to shorten lag time since it has less negative impact on flavor. There are people that will argue this next point but it is really hard to over pitch to the point that it has a negative impact on beer flavor, remember there are a number of brewers that pitch a new beer straight on to the yeast cake of a previous beer, meaning they are starting the new batch with the same amount of yeast as the old batch ended with. But also note that it is more complicated than this here, if you intentionally under pitch you can create more esters and other "off flavors" that may be part of what you want (like isomerization said), English ales are a good example where you may want to under pitch to create compounds more traditionally associated with the style, that's part of the English character that is so hard to get right.

No I don't think it will have any negative effect on this beer.

Personally I would make a big starter and avoid having the temp quite so high above your target, I often pitch a little high but in my case it's usually just a bit above (10 degrees F or less) and never outside the range listed for the beer and I usually have fairly short lag times. Ultimately you don't have to listen to me or anyone else and honestly if you like the beer you get you shouldn't! RDWHHB

 

[brewNYC]

My take on your questions-



Yes to the first part- I had a malfunctioning temp sensor and I had a huge starter and by beer went absolutely nuts, but it was still good beer.

The second part is a bit of a yes and no- In my case above it was no issue and I don't think it will be for you. You definitely run the risk of off flavors, though keep in mind isomerization is exactly right that off flavor is subjective and style based and with this yeast and style there is probably little issue there. It's not that a short lag is inherently bad but it means that the yeast are going crazy reproducing etc quickly and without restraint which can cause them to make more compounds typically considered undesired. If you tried the same thing with some kind of lager you may have so much diacetyl that the yeast can never clean it or so much sulfur it's undrinkable, though again that will depend on yeast strain. You can have short lag without those problems under the right circumstances but a short lag runs a risk. Personally I don't mind a long lag, as long as it's not too long, though I do try to keep it short by increasing the pitching rate etc.

And to address this-


Yes the candi sugar go them going pretty well, alot of people sugest not adding sugars until after the yeast have calmed down a bit, after high krausen, because the yeast can get lazy and not attenuate well after pigging out on straight sugar leaving you half fermented beer (I've done both ways with no problem but tend to add late just to be safe).

Yes the warm pitch was part of it, possibly the biggest part, and possibly the part that could have the biggest negative effect on flavor but I already went in to this. I know you said it's been "proven" that pitching warm is not an issue but I really think it's more complicated than that, remember commercial breweries often pitch colder than their target fermentation, between the cost of chilling and added time I can't imagine they would do that if they didn't feel it was better. Another issue some might bring up here is that you may be shocking your yeast too much, which also causes off flavors, by taking them from roomish temp, up to 80, and back down to your target temp.

Yes over pitching also had a big impact on lag and a high yeast count is how most people try to shorten lag time since it has less negative impact on flavor. There are people that will argue this next point but it is really hard to over pitch to the point that it has a negative impact on beer flavor, remember there are a number of brewers that pitch a new beer straight on to the yeast cake of a previous beer, meaning they are starting the new batch with the same amount of yeast as the old batch ended with. But also note that it is more complicated than this here, if you intentionally under pitch you can create more esters and other "off flavors" that may be part of what you want (like isomerization said), English ales are a good example where you may want to under pitch to create compounds more traditionally associated with the style, that's part of the English character that is so hard to get right.

No I don't think it will have any negative effect on this beer.

Personally I would make a big starter and avoid having the temp quite so high above your target, I often pitch a little high but in my case it's usually just a bit above (10 degrees F or less) and never outside the range listed for the beer and I usually have fairly short lag times. Ultimately you don't have to listen to me or anyone else and honestly if you like the beer you get you shouldn't! RDWHHB

Good summary! Yeah, I think I’ll go back to pitching at my target fermentation temp, sounds like pitching warm is a bit of a gamble - I hate waiting a month or two to see what happened! Over- pitching may have some value, though.. sounds like it’s pretty risk-free unless you really go crazy..presumably you can always bump up the temp mid-ferment if you want some “character”

Incidentally, I may stop chilling below my target temp before pitching. I did a couple of IPA’s last year with US-05 pitched in the mid 50’s and slowly ramped up through fermentation. I got some apricot flavors, which makes me think my yeast were stressed a bit trying to start up at the low temp. I did not have the same problem when I pitched a whole pack into a 1-gallon test batch using the same method and recipe..Perhaps starting below the recommended temp range is a luxury for those who can have massive pitch rates (commercial breweries, or people who have time to do multi-step starters)

Update on this batch:as of this morning, (36 hours in)I’m down 10 gravity points (about 20 percent attenuated) and bubbling away. Oddly, this beer is keeping a perfectly steady rate of fermentation since pitching, rather than “ramping up’” like most of my ales do. I’m not complaining, since I haven’t had to clean up a mess from my blowoff tube yet, but I may bump the temp up to 72 once I hit 50 percent attenuation, just to make sure it doesn’t get stuck. I’ve been told this yeast ferments too clean for the style in the 60’s anyway..

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I suspect the biggest factor for the "no lag" was: "Pitched full starter at high krausen." During the lag phase, yeast are consuming oxygen, minerals, and nitrogen from the wort and prepping for growth. In your case, the yeast had already done this. I suspect they quickly consumed the oxygen on the wort, and switched over the anaerobic fermentation. I don't suspect there is any "negative" impacts to this practice, but I suspect there could be differences in the beer vs a standard pitch. In this case (Wyeast 3944 Belgian Wit) I would not be surprised if you got less "Belgian" character, but the high temps might give you more banana character (I have never used this yeast myself). I would be interested to hear how the beer turns out.

US-05 pitched in the mid 50's? I have only had a fermentation chamber for a few months, and I am trying to figure out if pitching at 64F is too cold. I need to do some experiments, but I am having good luck pitching ales in the 64F to 66F, then boosting the temp up to 70F to 72F as the fermentation starts to slow (usually after 3 or 4 days of active fermentation).

 

[Eric_S]

Keep Chico strains (US05, Wlp001 and Wyesat 1056) in the mid 60s. It gets fruit on the low end of its temperature spectrum. Pitch at say 66f raise to 68f the next day and few days later to 70f to finish.

 

[isomerization]

Keep Chico strains (US05, Wlp001 and Wyesat 1056) in the mid 60s. It gets fruit on the low end of its temperature spectrum. Pitch at say 66f raise to 68f the next day and few days later to 70f to finish.

Desirably fruit (like in an IPA) or bad fruit?

 

[brewNYC]

Desirably fruit (like in an IPA) or bad fruit?

My experience fermenting at the low end of US 05 gave me apricot, as stated above. Some of my friends liked it, but it also seemed to have a hint of astringency. I don’t think Chico strains are the best way to get fruity flavors..

 

[brewNYC]

Update on this brew. I’m on day 5 and have reached 50 percent attenuation, at exactly 10 percent attenuation per day, each day.. I increased the temp from 68 to 71 yesterday, but it’s still just plodding along at the same rate. It seems a little surprising, considering I over-pitched, oxygenated, and pitched slightly warm. Has anyone else experienced slow attenuation from this wyeast Belgian wit? Not sticking, just slow..

 

[archthered]

I've never used this strain and I don't take daily gravity readings so I don't know exactly how fast my beer drops on a daily basis but this does not seem particularly slow to me. Your gravity is high so you should expect a long time to finish, even with a huge starter you should expect it to take at least a week and maybe even two. In my experience there is no real way to speed up a bigger beer like this. It will take however long it takes. Your high pitch rate and warm fermentation may speed it up but we are talking a couple of days or so. IMO the benefit of the starter is that you are less likely to get a stuck fermentation, hit a lower FG, and avoiding off flavors associated with stressed yeast, not significantly increased speed.

 

[brewNYC]

I've never used this strain and I don't take daily gravity readings so I don't know exactly how fast my beer drops on a daily basis but this does not seem particularly slow to me. Your gravity is high so you should expect a long time to finish, even with a huge starter you should expect it to take at least a week and maybe even two. In my experience there is no real way to speed up a bigger beer like this. It will take however long it takes. Your high pitch rate and warm fermentation may speed it up but we are talking a couple of days or so. IMO the benefit of the starter is that you are less likely to get a stuck fermentation, hit a lower FG, and avoiding off flavors associated with stressed yeast, not significantly increased speed.

Good to know - my high ABV brews in the past have been with Wyeast Abby 2, or BE-256. Both of which ramped up in the middle of fermentation, and had pretty much finished by day 5, even when pitching cold. This yeast is acting very differently!

I’m trying out a tilt hydrometer on this brew, hence the ability to constantly know gravity readings. More info=More question=more fun.

 

[isomerization]

Good to know - my high ABV brews in the past have been with Wyeast Abby 2, or BE-256. Both of which ramped up in the middle of fermentation, and had pretty much finished by day 5, even when pitching cold. This yeast is acting very differently!

I’m trying out a tilt hydrometer on this brew, hence the ability to constantly know gravity readings. More info=More question=more fun.

Very strain specific, I see more consistent chugging with Belgian strains versus say English strains which can just rip through in a matter of days.

Also +1 to starting gravity having an effect. With the Tilt you can see changes in rate (think drawing a line through the points at different angles. As attenuation (and thus alcohol) increases, rate will slow down for pretty much all yeasts, but also based on specific initial conditions in your wort and yeast strain used.

Edit: added a photo trying to show the different rates idea (red, yellow, green) as the yeast starts to slow down. This was more of a chugger than a ripper haha.

 

[brewNYC]

Update on this beer, looks like Its finishing up at 1.011, which is about 85 percent attenuation. As you can see from the attached chart, it stalled a couple of times, but then got going again after a good shake. Apparently this yeast top-crops so well, it can actually stall with all the yeast in the krausen (sort of the opposite problem of highly flocculant yeasts).

Not sure what style to call this, with an OG of 1.070, and an FG of 1.011. Somewhere between a saison and a golden strong?

Going to leave it in the primary another week, then bottle carbonate to somewhere around 3 volumes (cause that’s how I treat my Belgian friends ). Looking forward to seeing if I got some good clove flavor out of the slightly warm temp without fusels..

 

[brewNYC]

Just FYI, this beer turned out great. Bottled today. The hydrometer sample tasted awesome, (flat and at room temp). Looking forward to drinking this when it carbs up. Spicy and fruity, but not at all harsh or overly banana - like. Looks like I got away with the high pitch temp this time!!