Shoot big mistake

[schematix]

You have this idea thought that you can't make great beer unless you do to do which is false. Loads of excellent beer is made without Lodo and loads of crap beer is made with Lodo. So sorry but you shouldn't post on a thread about how only good brewers use Lodo methods and how you're method is superior when the original question was about a priming sugar mistake

My experience is that oxidation really dulls out a beer. And as I've said a bunch of times, it doesn't outright ruin beer, but unquestionably it is not for the flavor benefit. I'm sorry that you don't think oxidation matters, but the truth is that it does and its a difficult problem to solve.

And i was replying to point out someone who had mentioned oxidation, and another that was looking for more info.

Don't be a dick.

 

[Rhaop]

I think the problem begins with this post being on the beginners forum but lodo is not a beginners method, many other things a newbie needs to work on to start making good beer before they start to worry that they ruined their beer before the mash was even finished

 

[schematix]

I agree that low oxygen techniques are a bit more advanced and I wouldn't suggest a new brewer attempt them in the beginning when there are far more important details to work out. There is a learning curve to brewing and one of the things on the list along with water chemistry, fermentation temp control, etc, should be oxidation control. But obviously if you don't have fermentation temps under control then there's no point to trying to reduce oxidation anyways.

But a lot of people around here are suggesting, incorrectly, that oxidation isn't real and shouldn't be worried about at all, and i think that message is a huge disservice to the home brewing community.

And again i wasn't telling the OP that the solution to his problem had anything to do with low oxygen. I was commenting in response to someone else that at this point the OP need not worry about oxidation because it's already happened. And when OP asked how to reduce, i gave him a short overview and a link for further reading. Oxidation doesn't inherently ruin beer. It just dulls and changes the flavors. It doesn't make it undrinkable or unsafe to drink.

 

[Jako]

I think the problem begins with this post being on the beginners forum but lodo is not a beginners method, many other things a newbie needs to work on to start making good beer before they start to worry that they ruined their beer before the mash was even finished

like making sure you have caps ready before you rack and add priming sugar?

 

[jodell]

I agree that low oxygen techniques are a bit more advanced and I wouldn't suggest a new brewer attempt them in the beginning when there are far more important details to work out. There is a learning curve to brewing and one of the things on the list along with water chemistry, fermentation temp control, etc, should be oxidation control. But obviously if you don't have fermentation temps under control then there's no point to trying to reduce oxidation anyways.

But a lot of people around here are suggesting, incorrectly, that oxidation isn't real and shouldn't be worried about at all, and i think that message is a huge disservice to the home brewing community.

And again i wasn't telling the OP that the solution to his problem had anything to do with low oxygen. I was commenting in response to someone else that at this point the OP need not worry about oxidation because it's already happened. And when OP asked how to reduce, i gave him a short overview and a link for further reading. Oxidation doesn't inherently ruin beer. It just dulls and changes the flavors. It doesn't make it undrinkable or unsafe to drink.

I never said oxygen was a issue and that's my point.
This thread was about making a priming sugar mistake, not about lodo techniques. I agree that post boil oxygen is detrimental to a beer but to the extreme of what you described in an earlier post I disagree (although I understand many people make excellent beer with it).

 

[Rhaop]

like making sure you have caps ready before you rack and add priming sugar?

Bingo lol, all part of the learning experience which makes brewing fun and rewarding


And i wasn’t putting an argument for or against lodo because I haven’t attempted it nor have I drank a lodo brewed beer, all brewers will go through the progressions extract, all grain, kegging, water chemistry, etc for me lodo is more on the end game level

To each their own brew on! [emoji482]

 

[Nuke83]

like making sure you have caps ready before you rack and add priming sugar?

Best post in the thread.

 

[MaryB]

Load of crap, at the home brewer level I bet there have been THOUSANDS of winning beers made the exact same way I make mine. And yes I have tasted oxidized beer. It tastes like crap. Incidental 5 minute exposure to O2 is not going to ruin a beer! While in the fermenter it has CO2 being produced, enough to keep a layer above the beer. So the 5 minutes it takes me to kill a keg that was recently full of CO2 then is put back under CO2 has negligible O2 exposure.

And Bruphilosphy points out the fact that even so called home brew experts cannot taste the difference! Your claim both beers were oxidized is a load of bull because you never tasted either!

And none of my beer tends to last more than 3 months, either I drink it or friends drink it or family drinks it(my little brother just swiped a keg, grrr now I have to brew this weekend. I can't complain to hard, it is my nieces wedding out in CA and he is flying with the keg!)

i would gladly wager with you. It's not even close to negligible. That's why pro brewers do it, and above average home brewers have figured it out too.

I would agree though that the *average* home brewer is probably going to have a hard time with it. But that doesn't mean an average home brewer has to be average forever.




Brulosphy should never be quoted as evidence of anything. It's the home brewing equivalent to mythbusters. Entertainment value only. The writers themselves say as much.

Both of the beers in their experiment were oxidized so no surprise no difference was detected. It's an extremely small amount of oxygen that puts you over the threshold. Once you exceed the threshold it doesn't matter how far you exceed it to a point.

There's a good thread going on right now about brulosphy that discusses the merits and shortcomings.




It's actually quite possible you have learned to enjoy oxidized beer. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you're all missing my point here though. If you think your oxidized beers are good, you'd be blown away how good they are when they aren't oxidized. It's a step level improvement in the beer quality on the same level as fermentation temperature control.

 

[yeehaw]

Would be interesting to hear OP's experience going forward -- did you get bottle bombs or was the beer under/overcarbed?

I'm also a bit worried about oxidizing my beer. Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I'd like some input... I have pin-lock kegs, so purging is done with the gas-in post instead of the purge valve on the lid found on ball-lock kegs. However, the gas-in tube protrudes into the keg an inch or more, and there's a couple of inches headspace left in the keg. Obviously I won't be able to get all the oxygen out from this space when I purge? Is this something to worry about? (i.e. should I start looking into swapping all of the lids on my kegs into lids equipped with a purge valve?)

 

[NSMikeD]

since this is a beginners thread, it's a good example of using check lists and laying out everything before you begin. On brew days, I use BrewSmith and print out the Brew Steps in the Session tab. I also try to keep my gear organized in bins - small bins in a large bin. It helps me visualize if I am running low on something.

 

[jlinz]

I would gladly wager with you. It's not even close to negligible. That's why pro brewers do it, and above average home brewers have figured it out too.

I would agree though that the *average* home brewer is probably going to have a hard time with it. But that doesn't mean an average home brewer has to be average forever.




Brulosphy should never be quoted as evidence of anything. It's the home brewing equivalent to Mythbusters. Entertainment value only. The writers themselves say as much.

Both of the beers in their experiment were oxidized so no surprise no difference was detected. It's an extremely small amount of oxygen that puts you over the threshold. Once you exceed the threshold it doesn't matter how far you exceed it to a point.

There's a good thread going on right now about Brulosphy that discusses the merits and shortcomings.




It's actually quite possible you have learned to enjoy oxidized beer. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you're all missing my point here though. If you think your oxidized beers are good, you'd be blown away how good they are when they aren't oxidized. It's a step level improvement in the beer quality on the same level as fermentation temperature control.

Sort of off topic at this point, but can't help it.

First, you saying that your beer has improved from employing these techniques (which, by the way, came from a paper where the authors are talking about duplicating the flavor of a Helles), is really not any more credible than brulosophy. In fact, with brulosophy at least we have an experiment of sorts to lend some credibility to the issue.

That said, I actually think what you are saying here may in fact be true but not for the reason one might think. I too have no evidence for this claim, but what the hell, here it goes...I think that beers done with these techniques probably do taste better to some, but the real root of that is psychological. In fact, I think after a certain point perception of "off" flavors is psychological. Brewers get so fixated on the tiniest details of the beer that they likely import flavors that are either not there altogether or not perceptible to an ordinary palate. I'm not saying that oxidation is not real. I am saying that it can be a bugbear that one fears and thinks he or she tastes it in everything. Brett is kind of like this, too.

Just a theory. Take it for what it's worth, which is nothing, because it's free.

 

[jlinz]

Sort of off topic at this point, but can't help it.

First, you saying that your beer has improved from employing these techniques (which, by the way, came from a paper where the authors are talking about duplicating the flavor of a Helles), is really not any more credible than brulosophy. In fact, with brulosophy at least we have an experiment of sorts to lend some credibility to the issue.

That said, I actually think what you are saying here may in fact be true but not for the reason one might think. I too have no evidence for this claim, but what the hell, here it goes...I think that beers done with these techniques probably do taste better to some, but the real root of that is psychological. In fact, I think after a certain point perception of "off" flavors is psychological. Brewers get so fixated on the tiniest details of the beer that they likely import flavors that are either not there altogether or not perceptible to an ordinary palate. I'm not saying that oxidation is not real. I am saying that it can be a bugbear that one fears and thinks he or she tastes it in everything. Brett is kind of like this, too.

Just a theory. Take it for what it's worth, which is nothing, because it's free.

Of course, now going back and reading that paper, I started to get interested in the method...

 

[schematix]

That said, I actually think what you are saying here may in fact be true but not for the reason one might think. I too have no evidence for this claim, but what the hell, here it goes...I think that beers done with these techniques probably do taste better to some, but the real root of that is psychological.

You are describing a well known phenomenon called confirmation bias. In other words, if I expect a change, i will see a change. No one is immune to this. I try to be as objective as possible when i judge my own product. I'm not one to shy away from critiquing myself either.

But i am confident the low oxygen process works because
1. I've done a lot of typical brewing the way most people do it.

2. I've done a lot of low oxygen brewing.

3. There are obvious sensory differences between the two products. For one, there is 0 mash aroma (flavor compounds aren't being oxidized and becoming volatile, leaving the wort for good). I think we'd all agree mash smell is easily detected (wives seem especially sensitive to the smell!). The second is the wort flavor. If you're used to tasting hydrometer samples of mash wort, and post-boil wort, it's another night/day difference when you get it done low oxygen. Take my word for it or don't, but the flavor difference is so blatantly obvious i don't need a panel of random people to tell me if they detect a difference or not.

4. I don't want this to be true, because it's a little more work and a little more time consuming. I'd rather it be of no benefit so i can go back to my simplified method.

 

[jlinz]

You are describing a well known phenomenon called confirmation bias. In other words, if I expect a change, i will see a change. No one is immune to this. I try to be as objective as possible when i judge my own product. I'm not one to shy away from critiquing myself either.

But i am confident the low oxygen process works because
1. I've done a lot of typical brewing the way most people do it.

2. I've done a lot of low oxygen brewing.

3. There are obvious sensory differences between the two products. For one, there is 0 mash aroma (flavor compounds aren't being oxidized and becoming volatile, leaving the wort for good). I think we'd all agree mash smell is easily detected (wives seem especially sensitive to the smell!). The second is the wort flavor. If you're used to tasting hydrometer samples of mash wort, and post-boil wort, it's another night/day difference when you get it done low oxygen. Take my word for it or don't, but the flavor difference is so blatantly obvious i don't need a panel of random people to tell me if they detect a difference or not.

4. I don't want this to be true, because it's a little more work and a little more time consuming. I'd rather it be of no benefit so i can go back to my simplified method.

Even though you may not be impressed with brulosophy, this is worth a read.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

 

[schematix]

Even though you may not be impressed with brulosophy, this is worth a read.
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

I am familiar with the experiment, and it goes to show how bad these guys can be and why nothing they print should be taken as anything more than entertainment.

One need not read any further than the OG they acheived to see why. They claimed to make 2 identical batches, but ended up with 1.044 vs 1.035 SG. The experiment should have ended right there to determine why there was such a large difference. The difference is likely attributed to the following 2 points:

1. Not stirring enough after dough in. They don't recirculate the mash so it's necessary to stir a few times over the course of the mash. They didn't do that.
2. Their mash was deeply flawed. Around the time the paper was published there was a LOT of continental pilsner malt being sold in the US that had extremely high gelatinization temperature. It was so high that if you blindly used the mash schedule in the PDF (A Hochkurz type) you didn't get good conversion, and thus poor efficiency, and also very poor attenuation. The situation has improved, but if you employ this type of mash you need to know the gel temp so you can get a sufficient beta amylase rest. If you see in their write up, they mashed the low oxygen beer no higher than 146 (which probably then dropped a few degrees), while the 'standard' beer was 148. I personally observed gel temps around 150 during this time, so i believe the 2 degree difference in mash temp was actually significant here.

 

[Jako]

Would be interesting to hear OP's experience going forward -- did you get bottle bombs or was the beer under/overcarbed?

I'm also a bit worried about oxidizing my beer. Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I'd like some input... I have pin-lock kegs, so purging is done with the gas-in post instead of the purge valve on the lid found on ball-lock kegs. However, the gas-in tube protrudes into the keg an inch or more, and there's a couple of inches headspace left in the keg. Obviously I won't be able to get all the oxygen out from this space when I purge? Is this something to worry about? (i.e. should I start looking into swapping all of the lids on my kegs into lids equipped with a purge valve?)

i plan to update i think i am going to try one today because i like to see how the beer changes from green beer to prime. when i took a sip of it before i bottled it had a strong bitter punch then fished clean with a melon taste honeydew ish with no bitter after taste.

 

[Jako]

since this is a beginners thread, it's a good example of using check lists and laying out everything before you begin. On brew days, I use BrewSmith and print out the Brew Steps in the Session tab. I also try to keep my gear organized in bins - small bins in a large bin. It helps me visualize if I am running low on something.

i think i will look into doing something like this. this was my 3rd batch and thought man i know what i am doing. well it was also my first BIAB batch so i was a bit caught up in what i was doing with the grain.

 

[MaryB]

Don't have the lid on tight, purge at very low pressure so it escapes around the lid then bring it back to 12psi(or 30 if force carbing) and it will seal before you close the bail. If it doesn't want to purge I have put a short piece of sanitized vinyl tube in the lid gap so it has a spot to escape through. Purge, pull the piece of tubing, bring to pressure.

Would be interesting to hear OP's experience going forward -- did you get bottle bombs or was the beer under/overcarbed?

I'm also a bit worried about oxidizing my beer. Sorry to hijack the thread a bit, but I'd like some input... I have pin-lock kegs, so purging is done with the gas-in post instead of the purge valve on the lid found on ball-lock kegs. However, the gas-in tube protrudes into the keg an inch or more, and there's a couple of inches headspace left in the keg. Obviously I won't be able to get all the oxygen out from this space when I purge? Is this something to worry about? (i.e. should I start looking into swapping all of the lids on my kegs into lids equipped with a purge valve?)

 

[Jako]

Well I cracked my first one 5 days after bottling. And man it's perfect the flavor is spot on. No off flavors as of now and carb level is better then my last two beers at the same stage

 

[MaryB]

Brewers Friend will print a checklist for you! Limited as a free version but it is cheap and often discounted for the members here. I use it to save my recipes and if i make a change I can make notes in how flavors changed. Like today when I was weighing out grain for my house ale I was short 1/2 pound of Golden Promise so I upped the Victory from 3.5 to 4 pounds.

i think i will look into doing something like this. this was my 3rd batch and thought man i know what i am doing. well it was also my first BIAB batch so i was a bit caught up in what i was doing with the grain.

 

[MaryB]

The article the LODO brewing method is based on is using a beer style that started in 1894 where I highly doubt they worried about O2 levels! So they are not making a traditional Helles, they are making a bastardized version that is not true to the original!

 

[schematix]

The 1894 version was likely sour too. Pure yeast cultures didn't exist yet.

The PDF isn't about making 1894 Helles. It's about making modern Helles. Oxygen reduction wasn't even a thing until the last few decades.

 

[MaryB]

No it was not sour, by 1894 they knew about yeast

"Lager Yeast Co-Evolves with German Bottom Fermentation

Of the three major historical brewing traditions (German, British and Belgian), the German tradition is the only one with bottom-fermented styles.

Although the majority of breweries in Germany today have been built for lager brewing, the distinct species of yeast now used exclusively for this form of brewing (Saccharomyces pastorianus) has been in existence for (at most) five hundred years.

It is difficult to pinpoint exactly when the new strain emerged, since a pure cell line was isolated for the first time in 1883. However, bottom fermented beers have been brewed in Franken since the early 15th century.

At some point, between then and 1883, ordinary brewers yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) hybridized with another yeast strain, producing the precursor to the modern lager yeast. This strain would undergo human selection and thereby evolve further traits suitable for the colder temperatures of bottom fermentation and lager styles.

In 2011 it was proven conclusively that the second yeast strain was Saccharomyces eubayanus and likely found its way into German breweries from wood originating in Patagonia, Argentina."

 

[yeehaw]

Don't have the lid on tight, purge at very low pressure so it escapes around the lid then bring it back to 12psi(or 30 if force carbing) and it will seal before you close the bail. If it doesn't want to purge I have put a short piece of sanitized vinyl tube in the lid gap so it has a spot to escape through. Purge, pull the piece of tubing, bring to pressure.

Thanks a lot, this will be my process from now on.

 

[MaryB]

Of course standard sanitation applies while doing this... like if you accidentally drop the small piece of tube into the keg... not that I am a clutz or anything :smack: thankfully I had dunked it in Starsan and left it in there. Currently drinking from that keg. I will retrieve it when I clean the keg lol

 

[Jako]

No it was not sour, by 1894 they knew about yeast

"Lager Yeast Co-Evolves with German Bottom Fermentation

Of the three major historical brewing traditions (German, British and Belgian), the German tradition is the only one with bottom-fermented styles.

Although the majority of breweries in Germany today have been built for lager brewing, the distinct species of yeast now used exclusively for this form of brewing (Saccharomyces pastorianus) has been in existence for (at most) five hundred years.

It is difficult to pinpoint exactly when the new strain emerged, since a pure cell line was isolated for the first time in 1883. However, bottom fermented beers have been brewed in Franken since the early 15th century.

At some point, between then and 1883, ordinary brewers yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) hybridized with another yeast strain, producing the precursor to the modern lager yeast. This strain would undergo human selection and thereby evolve further traits suitable for the colder temperatures of bottom fermentation and lager styles.

In 2011 it was proven conclusively that the second yeast strain was Saccharomyces eubayanus and likely found its way into German breweries from wood originating in Patagonia, Argentina."

super cool information

 

[GHBWNY]

i only added sugar once. once i read your original post i thought about waiting the 3 days but decided to bottle the next morning as soon as possible so i wouldn't have to bottle during the work week.

Chances are your beer is totally ruined; it will have an atrociously oxidized off-flavor ("hyperoxidosisusism" we call it in the trade), plus it will be simultaneously totally flat AND ready to explode, causing potentially life-threatening harm to you and your loved ones. Not to speak of your fledgling home brewing reputation. While I'm really sorry to have to be the one to tell you all of this, and while considering it a very costly but educational mistake, don't consider it a total loss --- the next logical step (especially for the sake of everyone's health and safety) is to get rid of it... The best way to do this is to box it up and send it to me so I can dispose of it safely and properly.

 

[Jako]

Chances are your beer is totally ruined; it will have an atrociously oxidized off-flavor ("hyperoxidosisusism" we call it in the trade), plus it will be simultaneously totally flat AND ready to explode, causing potentially life-threatening harm to you and your loved ones. Not to speak of your fledgling home brewing reputation. While I'm really sorry to have to be the one to tell you all of this, and while considering it a very costly but educational mistake, don't consider it a total loss --- the next logical step (especially for the sake of everyone's health and safety) is to get rid of it... The best way to do this is to box it up and send it to me so I can dispose of it safely and properly.

Shame your in the business of bad beer because it turned out great.

 

[NSMikeD]

i think i will look into doing something like this. this was my 3rd batch and thought man i know what i am doing. well it was also my first BIAB batch so i was a bit caught up in what i was doing with the grain.

didn't prevent me from taking an inventory before shopping for ingredients to complete a smoked stout recipe, only to forget what I had on hand and mixed up the ingredients so the proportions were all off. Turned out ok though not what I was seeking but decent nevertheless

Sunday nights brew was going to plan, until I nodded off and didn't hear the timer go off. So the fist 40 minutes of the boil went for 80 minutes. I finished adding the late additions, and while I could have topped off with new water, the numbers were close enough for me to say screw it, pitched the years and went to bed.

 

[Jako]

didn't prevent me from taking an inventory before shopping for ingredients to complete a smoked stout recipe, only to forget what I had on hand and mixed up the ingredients so the proportions were all off. Turned out ok though not what I was seeking but decent nevertheless

Sunday nights brew was going to plan, until I nodded off and didn't hear the timer go off. So the fist 40 minutes of the boil went for 80 minutes. I finished adding the late additions, and while I could have topped off with new water, the numbers were close enough for me to say screw it, pitched the years and went to bed.

i don't know how it happens to me but i am always rushed or its super late i fell asleep while i was cooling the wart on this batch.