Set me straight on my hefeweizen! Can I bottle yet?

[luckybeagle]

My first AG batch was a Weihenstephan Hefe Weissbier clone (single step infusion, no decoction--so I guess not a perfect clone).

I missed my mash temp, boiled for only 60 minutes, pitched hot, fermented hot (75F) didn't make a starter, broke my thermometer halfway through, missed my OG by at least 10 pts, used the wrong hops--I made pretty much every error I could have. It was still decent-tasting albeit a little yeasty and thin.

I repeated the recipe and corrected all of my mistakes, hit all of my numbers, used the right hops, built up a starter using Wyeast 3068, fermented at 69F etc. I'm now 8 days after pitch and have been at my target FG for two days now. I went from blow off tube to airlock once fermentation mellowed out, and now average one bubble every 2+ minutes. Samples taste good for an uncarbonated, unrefrigerated hefeweizen but... is it too early to bottle given this info?

 

[thehaze]

Hefes should be consumed and enjoyed pretty fresh, so if you're sure fermentation has ended, you can bottle.

 

[Rev2010]

I don't agree with the whole "drink hefe's young" thing. I think 8 days is too short and I can pretty much guarantee if you bottle it now you won't be super happy with it. At least give it two weeks. I would often do 3 weeks but two weeks should be fine as cold conditioning makes more difference IMO for a hefe. Some people do it for 10 days and it works for many but personally I could never make it work and I've made very many hefe's. That said, next time skip the starter, hefe's are good pitched lower than other types of beer.


Rev.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Flavor preference aside, I'd hold off on bottling until you can measure and ensure consistent FG values.

 

[Smellyglove]

Bottle it. Hefes with a correct yeast management are usually done after 6 days. Grab it now and bottle those aroamas and flavors. It's downhill from here if not bottled.

 

[Smellyglove]

I don't agree with the whole "drink hefe's young" thing. I think 8 days is too short and I can pretty much guarantee if you bottle it now you won't be super happy with it. At least give it two weeks. I would often do 3 weeks but two weeks should be fine as cold conditioning makes more difference IMO for a hefe. Some people do it for 10 days and it works for many but personally I could never make it work and I've made very many hefe's. That said, next time skip the starter, hefe's are good pitched lower than other types of beer.


Rev.

Never omit the importance of yeast vitality. Your process seems off.

 

[Rev2010]

Never omit the importance of yeast vitality. Your process seems off.

Thanks for the "advice" but no my process is not off as it's worked very well for me. I prefer to slightly under-pitch my hefe's for a little more prominent banana esters. basically I like to use a single fresh pouch of Wyeast 3068 as opposed to making a starter. If the yeast date is 8 weeks old or more (very rare) then I'll make a starter.


Rev.

 

[Smellyglove]

Thanks for the "advice" but no my process is not off as it's worked very well for me. I prefer to slightly under-pitch my hefe's for a little more prominent banana esters. basically I like to use a single fresh pouch of Wyeast 3068 as opposed to making a starter. If the yeast date is 8 weeks old or more (very rare) then I'll make a starter.


Rev.

You don't need to underpitch at all to get more banana. I agree that your process is not off if the final product is satisfactory. It just seemed somewhat different. I've been there myself with the two-week-three week fermentation and for me comparing to now it was lacking. So it was just a comparison between "me" and "me" at different stages.

 

[Rev2010]

You don't need to underpitch at all to get more banana. I agree that your process is not off if the final product is satisfactory. It just seemed somewhat different. I've been there myself with the two-week-three week fermentation and for me comparing to now it was lacking. So it was just a comparison between "me" and "me" at different stages.

Another aspect I failed to mention is I also ferment on the lower end. I ferment at 62 degrees based on a number of articles I've read and also as recommended in Eric Warner's Hefeweizen book. The lower temp does obviously take a little longer to complete fermentation. I will grant you this - since I switched to leaving my hefe's in the fermenter longer it's been years since I tried doing them quick. Being over all these years my processes have certainly improved I think I may do a test at some point where I do one young and do one that I let sit my usual - timing them to be ready at the same time. If it comes out great young I'd be ecstatic to be able to be able to do them quicker.

But to the OP's post - if you'll notice he said, "My first AG batch was a Weihenstephan Hefe Weissbier clone" and that he has rebrewed it now correcting his mistakes. He also has a join date of April 2018. So, from that I'm gathering he's still quite new to AG brewing. As a result I still stand by my assessment that he likely will not be happy if he bottles it after 8 days and he should just be patient and wait a bit longer.


Rev.

 

[Smellyglove]

Another aspect I failed to mention is I also ferment on the lower end. I ferment at 62 degrees based on a number of articles I've read and also as recommended in Eric Warner's Hefeweizen book. The lower temp does obviously take a little longer to complete fermentation. I will grant you this - since I switched to leaving my hefe's in the fermenter longer it's been years since I tried doing them quick. Being over all these years my processes have certainly improved I think I may do a test at some point where I do one young and do one that I let sit my usual - timing them to be ready at the same time. If it comes out great young I'd be ecstatic to be able to be able to do them quicker.

But to the OP's post - if you'll notice he said, "My first AG batch was a Weihenstephan Hefe Weissbier clone" and that he has rebrewed it now correcting his mistakes. He also has a join date of April 2018. So, from that I'm gathering he's still quite new to AG brewing. As a result I still stand by my assessment that he likely will not be happy if he bottles it after 8 days and he should just be patient and wait a bit longer.


Rev.

I'm not talking about "quick" or "old". You can let it sit in the bottle, and imo the best way to bottle carbonate a hefe is with speise, so I let mine sit for 3-4 weeks in the bottle, 10 days at carb-temps rest at 10C. That's when they turn great in my house. But I "trap" the profile into the bottles early. If you bottle-carbonate with sucrose/table sugar it's lost at that point, it will never be good.

I wouldn't just follow Warners book, or articles which quote Jaimil Z, which says 17C is optimal. there's a lot of strange things mentioned in Warners book, and Jamils tip gives you a balanced, but not a great hefe since there's lot more to it than just balance, in fermentation.

What If I told you that several gold, and runners up in the german "nationals" have written 22-24C as ferm-temp, and bottled after 6 days? It's all about process. I don't doubt that your process is good, but something sticks out with it comparing to all the (good) info I've read, and what I've experienced myself.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Bottle it. Hefes with a correct yeast management are usually done after 6 days. Grab it now and bottle those aroamas and flavors. It's downhill from here if not bottled.

^^This. The longer you leave a beer in primary, the more the yeast clean up after themselves. For APA and IPA this is a good thing - you want a clean tasting beer. For hefes, that means losing some of those delicious phenols and esters that you want in your beer. IMO, hefes should be bottled once gravity is stable and any sulphur (if present) has blown off. Normally I bottle between 7 and 10 days.

 

[Smellyglove]

^^This. The longer you leave a beer in primary, the more the yeast clean up after themselves. For APA and IPA this is a good thing - you want a clean tasting beer. For hefes, that means losing some of those delicious phenols and esters that you want in your beer. IMO, hefes should be bottled once gravity is stable and any sulphur (if present) has blown off. Normally I bottle between 7 and 10 days.

Yes, thank you

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'd just like to re-emphasize the idea that rushing to bottle before a stable FG is asking for trouble. Process and preference aside, if it is as Rev2010 surmised and OP is a relatively newer brewer who doesn't know this (as hinted by the reference to airlock activity), I think it bears repeating.

@luckybeagle Make sure you get consistent FG readings for a few days before bottling.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

One more thing with your hefe. If you can get solid bottles, carbonate much higher than normal. I go to about 3.2 volumes (using spiess) and I know of others who go higher. A hefe at the normal 2.4 volumes doesn't taste quite right.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'd just like to re-emphasize the idea that rushing to bottle before a stable FG is asking for trouble. Process and preference aside, if it is as Rev2010 surmised and OP is a relatively newer brewer who doesn't know this (as hinted by the reference to airlock activity), I think it bears repeating.

@luckybeagle Make sure you get consistent FG readings for a few days before bottling.

OP is already way beyond bottle bombs, nobody has mentioned anything about "rushing", the 6-8 day tip was just as a side-thing, and 6-8 days is usually not rushing it either.

 

[Smellyglove]

One more thing with your hefe. If you can get solid bottles, carbonate much higher than normal. I go to about 3.2 volumes (using spiess) and I know of others who go higher. A hefe at the normal 2.4 volumes doesn't taste quite right.

I do 3.5 (7g/l co2 in my language) and have gone higher without feeling it as as risky thing to do.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I do 3.5 (7g/l co2 in my language) and have gone higher without feeling it as as risky thing to do.

What sort of bottles do you use? I stick with 3.2 because I only use standard bottles (disclaimer - this is above their design capacity, you may injure yourself if you try it etc.).

 

[Smellyglove]

What sort of bottles do you use? I stick with 3.2 because I only use standard bottles (disclaimer - this is above their design capacity, you may injure yourself if you try it etc.).

It's just straight 0.5 bottles from my lhbs. Like the bavarian hefes just just slightly different shape but I don't think they are thicker. Never thougth of hefe going into bombs. 7g/l isn't THAT much.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

+1 on go ahead and bottle. If you are at stable FG and your FG is in-line with the calculations, and it tastes good, bottle it. I think my last one was cold-crashed at day 7 and bottled/kegged at day 9.

I used 1.5 sugar cubes per 12oz bottle (most of it went into a keg with 6oz of sugar). I keep the bottles in a plastic tub with a lid, just in case they explode. I expect them to be borderline over-carbonated, but that's kind of the point.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Simple... If the fermentation is definitely complete, bottle it!

 

[logdrum]

I'm not talking about "quick" or "old". You can let it sit in the bottle, and imo the best way to bottle carbonate a hefe is with speise, so I let mine sit for 3-4 weeks in the bottle, 10 days at carb-temps rest at 10C. That's when they turn great in my house. But I "trap" the profile into the bottles early. If you bottle-carbonate with sucrose/table sugar it's lost at that point, it will never be good.

I wouldn't just follow Warners book, or articles which quote Jaimil Z, which says 17C is optimal. there's a lot of strange things mentioned in Warners book, and Jamils tip gives you a balanced, but not a great hefe since there's lot more to it than just balance, in fermentation.

What If I told you that several gold, and runners up in the german "nationals" have written 22-24C as ferm-temp, and bottled after 6 days? It's all about process. I don't doubt that your process is good, but something sticks out with it comparing to all the (good) info I've read, and what I've experienced myself.

Hmm, I'm getting ready to brew a Dunkleweizen next week, and have been scouring Warner's book for tips. Was planning on fermenting at the low end (17c), perhaps I should rethink that? What temp would you suggest? I will be keg conditioning w speise.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Hmm, I'm getting ready to brew a Dunkleweizen next week, and have been scouring Warner's book for tips. Was planning on fermenting at the low end (17c), perhaps I should rethink that? What temp would you suggest? I will be keg conditioning w speise.

17C for a dunkelweizen is quite tasty. It is more balanced than warmer temps and not quite as tart (IME.....a grand total of two batches at 17C). If you prefer more banana, ferment warmer. I'm going to ferment my next one a bit warmer.

 

[luckybeagle]

I should probably check in here a little more often--I've got some catching up to do here!

To address some of the things brought up--yes, I'm new to AG brewing. I did extract brewing a few years back but took enough time off to forget most things. I've brewed 4 AG batches over the past 2 months but spent 9 months in research mode while I was living overseas to pass the time since it wasn't practical to accumulate any equipment. So yes, experientially I am very new!

I switched to an airlock from my blow-off tube because I wanted to more easily pull samples. The semi-rigid vinyl tubing is a pain to remove without knocking over my jar of starsan/water. Does anyone know if switching to an airlock has any effect on flavor or fermentation with there being less backpressure than a 1 1/4" tube submersed in sanitizer+water?

On this go-around, I brewed a 10 gallon batch with a family member--he took 5 gallons home in his carboy and I kept 5 gallons for myself. I made a starter about 48-72 hours in advance because I only bought one packet of 3068 for the full batch. I'm doubtful I pitched heavy, but I don't know what the cell count was. Intermittent shaking method.

I've been sitting at FG of 1.010 for 4 days now. I pulled a sample yesterday via a wine thief and detected some sulfur smells in the nose, and some in the taste, too. It seems like I should wait for these to die down some before bottling--but to not let too much time pass before then. I understand the argument of yeast cleaning up the beer too much and removing some of those signature esters, so I hope to avoid that.

If this one doesn't taste significantly better than my first Hef, I think I may move on to another style. I followed an AG recipe for a porter recently and did a 10-day ferment. Just starting to show adequate carbonation in the bottles and is a big hit. Seems like it might be a less finnicky style to brew?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

If this one doesn't taste significantly better than my first Hef, I think I may move on to another style.[...] Seems like it might be a less finnicky style to brew?

Pretty much. There's nothing to hide behind - it's just wheat malt, pale malt, minimal IBUs, and the rest is the yeast. Any flaws or mistakes will shine through; really simple, but simple does not mean easy.

 

[Smellyglove]

Hmm, I'm getting ready to brew a Dunkleweizen next week, and have been scouring Warner's book for tips. Was planning on fermenting at the low end (17c), perhaps I should rethink that? What temp would you suggest? I will be keg conditioning w speise.

It depends on the OG, a dunkel is just like a straight up Hefe, but darker. And it depends on the mashing. One Brewers mashing regime can yield lots of esters and less phenols, while anothers mash can yield more clove and less esters. There is no set in stone fermentation temp for a given result.

 

[luckybeagle]

The sulphur smell has almost completely dissipated and my airlock is releasing a bubble every 3 minutes or so now. Taste is good. FG at 1.010 for about 6 days now. I moved it into a 71F area of the house to see if it will inspire the yeast to break down the rest of the smell. Overall I think bottling is safe now. My last batch I primed using cane sugar mixed with boiled water. Any suggestions on what to prime with for this batch, if not more of the same?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Sugar with boiled water will be fine.
I use spiess (freeze wort on brewday, boil and cool it when ready to bottle to use as priming sugar), but the difference is relatively small and more difficult to calculate.
Don't bother looking at how much the airlock does/doesn't bubble - it's largely irrelevant.

 

[Rev2010]

I use spiess

Just to be a stickler... it's called Speise


Rev.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Just to be a stickler... it's called Speise


Rev.

Thankyou! You are correct.

 

[logdrum]

It depends on the OG, a dunkel is just like a straight up Hefe, but darker. And it depends on the mashing. One Brewers mashing regime can yield lots of esters and less phenols, while anothers mash can yield more clove and less esters. There is no set in stone fermentation temp for a given result.

Ok, how about a 1.056 OG, 110F/43C, 145F/62C, 154F/67C mash schedule?