Session Pale Ale/IPA with huge % crystal malt?

[stickyfinger]

I've been trying to make a good session IPA (or session hop bomb Pale Ale if you are a snob about the term session IPA) for quite a long time. I gave up awhile ago, but I had another idea. I was wondering if anyone has tried it. I have been using around 10% crystal 10-20L in a lot of my NE IPAs to give them more perception of sweetness/fullness. i think it is working.

I was wondering why not make a low gravity wort out of a very high percentage of crystal 10L or 15L and see if the resulting beer has a nicer body and fullness of flavor to it?

One idea is to find the diastatic power of my pale 2-row (Great Western Pale Malt) and then just "dilute" it down to the point that the diastatic power is at the required level to convert the mash and make the rest crystal 10L? This says the diastatic power is around 141:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/great-western-domestic-2row-malt.html


This says 35 degrees Lintner is needed for full conversion:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

So, if I took it to the extreme, I could mix 25% GW 2-row with 75% Crystal 10L and wind up with an average degrees Lintner of ~35 for the mash, right?
I wonder what it would taste like for a low gravity wort, like 1.035 or something?

I think instead of just going overboard on the crystal 10L, I would first try using a lot of flaked oats/barley/wheat, maybe some rye malt and then a ton of crystal 10L and the balance 2-row.

Anyone have experience in this area?

 

[Pappers_]

Many find beers made with a high percentage of caramel or crystal malts to be sweet and cloying, which probably isn't what you want in a session pale ale or IPA. That being said, nothing wrong with experimenting, but for me, I don't use any in my IPAs and low amounts, 5% or less, in APAs.

Is your main concern body? To me, a sessionable APA or IPA is best when its light or medium light in body - and dry. Light and dry increases the 'drinkability' of session beers, making them more quaffable and enjoyable. If you do want to increase the body, though, I think you're on the right track with the flaked oaks or barley.

Cheers and let us know what you did.

 

[BigGutHeavyD]

That's not the way recipes work.

That's akin to saying one could make a cake with 75% sugar and 25% flour.

Depending on the style of beer crystal malts will become cloyingly sweet (with a high FG) at 5 - 20 % of the total grain bill.

Many resources are available for determining a reasonable percentage:

https://byo.com/malt/item/1553-using-crystal-malt-techniques
https://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=549
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13865.0

Try doing a google search and researching to determine what would be reasonable for you situation.

 

[stickyfinger]

I haven't found it cloying at all at 10% (for a 1.060-1.75 wort) in my NE IPAs. I needed more fullness/sweetness in the beer to counteract the tannins in the huge hop load. You may be right that if I go extreme it might taste too full/sweet though. I am excited to try it!

I have NEVER been pleased with a session IPA, frankly. They always taste too thin and dry, which is exacerbated by the huge dry hop load that I like to use in my hoppy beers. My goal is to try to create a < 4% ABV IPA that has just as much dripping hop resin flavor as the hoppiest of NE IPAs! It may be a fool's mission. I am not looking for a Session IPA that is light and thin. I am looking for a Session IPA that replicates the flavor of an IPA or double IPA (though many double IPAs tend to be too sweet for me).

Thanks for the input!

 

[stickyfinger]

That's not the way recipes work.

That's akin to saying one could make a cake with 75% sugar and 25% flour.

Depending on the style of beer crystal malts will become cloyingly sweet (with a high FG) at 5 - 20 % of the total grain bill.

Many resources are available for determining a reasonable percentage:

https://byo.com/malt/item/1553-using-crystal-malt-techniques
https://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=549
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13865.0

Try doing a google search and researching to determine what would be reasonable for you situation.

Yes, I realize this is a very unconventional approach. I had assumed someone had tried something like this. I remember Jamil Z. talking about wanting to make a 100% Aromatic Malt beer for the fun of it, as it should have enough diastatic power to convert itself. I think someone eventually made one, and he said that it was just WAY overpowering malty, and even Mr Malty wasn't a huge fan!!! This concept of a very high crystal malt mash is a similar out-of-the box approach. It may be genius or idiotic. I'd like to hear from someone who has tried something like it.

Low color crystal malts don't have a huge caramel flavor. Now, if I used like 50% crystal 10L, it might start tasting toffee-like, I don't know. That would probably not be what I am after. I HAVE made an IPA with 50% flaked wheat and 50% Pils that was pretty decent. It still didn't have enough depth though. Maybe going that route with like 20% light crystal would be a good first try.

 

[BigGutHeavyD]

A simple search will lead you to a lot of attempts at high crystal malt ratio beers:

http://www.brewunited.com/index.php?blogid=226

You mention 20% which isn't out of the question but for such a light crystal malt it may still be cloying.

Not sure that a small beer would support an IPA hop load.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

I strongly suspect that a very high percentage of crystal malt would be unpleasant. If you just want body, then you're better off mashing high and using dextrine malt. Or, make a pale ale with a sweeter base malt like Munich or Vienna.

Maybe you could make a beer with an amber ale malt bill and a pale ale or IPA hop level? That sounds like what you might be looking for.

 

[GrimBrewer]

Its sound like u want more of a "amber" ipa.

I agree wth tiredofbuyingbeer.
Reduce 2row to get 4% or low alcohol you want and then replace a portion of that with munich. Munich will give u extra maltyness and body without going too sweet. You can then do a 5% dex and 10% crystal 40. Or you can go more to the amber side by taking a bit less dex and 40 and add crystal 60.

 

[Schreiner]

Have you given consideration to mashing at a higher temperature to favor the alpha amylase enzymes rather than loading up on crystal. Thinking 156 - 158? Should get more body out of that.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Here's a free malt bill:

6 lbs, 4 oz. base malt (some mix of 2-row, vienna, and Munich 10; probably can't be all Munich b/c of diastatic power)
0 lbs, 13 oz. crystal 60
0 lbs, 13 oz. crystal 90
0 lbs, 6 oz. flaked wheat

It's just Palmer's Amber Ale in HTB scaled down to about 4% alcohol for a 5.5 gallon batch. Then just add in whatever hop schedule works for you to get up to pale ale or session IPA territory. That's what I would do if I wanted to brew what you describe.

 

[stickyfinger]

I strongly suspect that a very high percentage of crystal malt would be unpleasant. If you just want body, then you're better off mashing high and using dextrine malt. Or, make a pale ale with a sweeter base malt like Munich or Vienna.

Maybe you could make a beer with an amber ale malt bill and a pale ale or IPA hop level? That sounds like what you might be looking for.

I've actually already maxed out (or nearly so) the mash temp modification. I mash most of my beers at 165F with a mashout, and it doesn't really increase the body that much. I also boost my chloride to at least 100 or 150 ppm and keep the sulfate under 20 ppm. I've used 10% carapils, and it didn't really seem to have much effect.

I just read an old post at Mad Fermentationist:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/01/vienna-malt-session-ipa-recipe.html

Maybe he/you are onto something with the Vienna. I think I'll try going that route and see how it comes out.

 

[stickyfinger]

Here's a free malt bill:

6 lbs, 4 oz. base malt (some mix of 2-row, vienna, and Munich 10; probably can't be all Munich b/c of diastatic power)
0 lbs, 13 oz. crystal 60
0 lbs, 13 oz. crystal 90
0 lbs, 6 oz. flaked wheat

It's just Palmer's Amber Ale in HTB scaled down to about 4% alcohol for a 5.5 gallon batch. Then just add in whatever hop schedule works for you to get up to pale ale or session IPA territory. That's what I would do if I wanted to brew what you describe.

I was hoping to avoid going to a "malty" session IPA. My favorite IPAs are pretty light in color, maybe light orange at most, but I might have to just go with a maltier flavor to make the beer seem less dry/thin.

I also am still unsure which grains give the best body. A recent XBMT showed that people couldn't tell the difference b/w an NEIPA with 18% oats vs one with no oats,

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/21/the-impact-of-flaked-oats-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

so oats aren't promising, even though they supposedly contain the most B-glucan of any grain (don't have reference at present.) I have to agree that I didn't get HUGE mouthfeel out of the couple beers I did with 20% oats.

I should probably also use a lower attenuating yeast, like WLP002. I have noticed that WLP002 can give a very nice round, "sweeter" flavor in beer.

Maybe I'll try something like this:

70% Vienna malt
20% flaked oats
10% crystal 10L

165F mash temp (usually results in only around 70-75%% AA for me with WLP002)
OG around 1.045 (should be 4.2-4.5% ABV - reasonable low for a very hoppy beer)
no bittering hops
150 ppm chloride, no sulfate
1 oz/ gal in hopstand
1 oz/ gal in dryhop
WLP002

That should get me closer to what I am wanting. Thanks to everyone who has given me advice.

 

[Bullshivit-brew]

Have you given consideration to mashing at a higher temperature to favor the alpha amylase enzymes rather than loading up on crystal. Thinking 156 - 158? Should get more body out of that.

This was my chain of thought also.

 

[thunderwagn]

I've been using denny's fav 1450 recently for my apa's, and have been very happy with the rich, creamy mouthfeel. Mashing at 152/3.
Another thing that has really upped my hop game is dry hopping in the keg.

 

[stickyfinger]

I've been using denny's fav 1450 recently for my apa's, and have been very happy with the rich, creamy mouthfeel. Mashing at 152/3.
Another thing that has really upped my hop game is dry hopping in the keg.

I've used 1450 a few times as well and was very impressed. Thanks for the suggestion. I could try that yeast again as well.

You know, I've tried the keg hop, and I think I am just sensitive to the character it gives. It makes every one of my beers taste like a Rushing Duck beer. That is a brewery in Chester, NY that makes a lot of hop bomb beers. I never usually love them though, as they all have what I call a "keg hop" character. it is kind of a vegetal, dank flavor that I am a huge fan of. I much prefer a massive dry hop in primary, as it seems to give a different hop character to my taste buds.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[filthyastronaut]

If you like Rye, experiment with high percentages, like 30-40 percent. If you also mash high and keep the other portion of the grain bill Vienna or Munich with 5 percent or so crystal, I think you may get what you're looking for.

 

[z-bob]

I've been experimenting with drinking strong-ish beers cut with seltzer water. A beer that is sweet at 6% ABV is refreshing and much dryer when diluted to 4.5%. (do not try this with club soda instead of seltzer )

So increasing the crystal malt when watering down the recipe is probably a good idea, just don't go too far with it. Use Munich malt or dextrin malt for part of it, or mash really high.

 

[madscientist451]

I also am still unsure which grains give the best body. A recent XBMT showed that people couldn't tell the difference b/w an NEIPA with 18% oats vs one with no oats,

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/21/the-impact-of-flaked-oats-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

so oats aren't promising, even though they supposedly contain the most B-glucan of any grain (don't have reference at present.) I have to agree that I didn't get HUGE mouthfeel out of the couple beers I did with 20% oats.

In the Discussion section of the above Brulosphy experiment, Marshall Schott states:
"I feel I owe it to my hazy IPA loving friends to share that this was probably the best IPA I&#8217;ve ever made."
He also mentioned that he couldn't tell the difference between the beer with oats vs the one without.
Even with that last nugget, I'm thinking using oats deserves some more experimentation. Maybe try oat malt instead of flaked oats? Some well regarded Breweries are using oat malt in their IPA's so there must be something going on. Maybe try a step mash? The experimental brewing podcast recently covered the use of oats in session and NE IPA's, you may want to check that out.
I'm always up for an experiment, but I'm skeptical using a high percentage of crystal is going to work.
Here's a blog where tips are given for improving mouthfeel of low ABV beers:

thebeerengineblog.com/2013/08/06/reader-question-boosting-mouthfeel/

He mentions: -Dial back Co2
-Make Water adjustments
-use wheat, oats or Cara-pils
-Switch yeast strains

Very interesting subject, Thanks for posting.

 

[stickyfinger]

In the Discussion section of the above Brulosphy experiment, Marshall Schott states:
"I feel I owe it to my hazy IPA loving friends to share that this was probably the best IPA I’ve ever made."
He also mentioned that he couldn't tell the difference between the beer with oats vs the one without.
Even with that last nugget, I'm thinking using oats deserves some more experimentation. Maybe try oat malt instead of flaked oats? Some well regarded Breweries are using oat malt in their IPA's so there must be something going on. Maybe try a step mash? The experimental brewing podcast recently covered the use of oats in session and NE IPA's, you may want to check that out.
I'm always up for an experiment, but I'm skeptical using a high percentage of crystal is going to work.
Here's a blog where tips are given for improving mouthfeel of low ABV beers:

thebeerengineblog.com/2013/08/06/reader-question-boosting-mouthfeel/

He mentions: -Dial back Co2
-Make Water adjustments
-use wheat, oats or Cara-pils
-Switch yeast strains

Very interesting subject, Thanks for posting.

Cool. thanks

Think I'm gonna try
%
Vienna Malt 4L 50.0
Flaked Oats 1L 12.5
Flaked Wheat 2L12.5
Rye Malt 5L 12.5
Crystal 20L 12.5
160F mash
1.045 OG and use WLP002

 

[thunderwagn]

If you like Rye, experiment with high percentages, like 30-40 percent. If you also mash high and keep the other portion of the grain bill Vienna or Munich with 5 percent or so crystal, I think you may get what you're looking for.

Ah, good call on the rye! Often overlooked malt in creating a very nice mouthfeel. Had a really good local rye ale last night that was excellent!

 

[brewbeerry]

We mash our session IPA at 161F and it finishes around 1.013, down from 1.044, for 4% using wlp002. Also carb it around 2.35-2.4 vols for a smoother, maltier body which definitely helps. It's mainly 2 row with 5% crystal 60, 5% biscuit, and 5% Munich 2. I think it would definitely help to change the crystal 60 to wheat or oats

 

[stickyfinger]

We mash our session IPA at 161F and it finishes around 1.013, down from 1.044, for 4% using wlp002. Also carb it around 2.35-2.4 vols for a smoother, maltier body which definitely helps. It's mainly 2 row with 5% crystal 60, 5% biscuit, and 5% Munich 2. I think it would definitely help to change the crystal 60 to wheat or oats

interesting. how much can u hop it and still have balance?