Seriously Frustrated (Stuck Fermentation)

[bknifefight]

A little history first:
I attempted my first Barley Wine, a variation of the 999 recipe that I altered to make it an extract / first (probably failed) attempt of a mini mash. I did not take a OG because I never have been able to get an accurate result due to my partial boils and the wort never evenly mixes with my water before I pitch the yeast.

The recipe:
Like I said, I attempted to do a mini mash here but probably did it wrong. I had no 2-row which I now understand is needed to convert other grains. This might as well have been steeping grains. I "mashed" for an hour at 150* but when I did my sparge, the pot was not big enough for the wet grains and the water I had heated up so I had to dump some, reheat and add the grains. It probably did not rinse any sugars from the grains at all.

12.15 lb Extra Light Dry Extract
1.74 lb Munich Malt
0.65 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L
0.33 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L
0.22 lb Special B Malt
2.75 oz Northern Brewer [9.40 %] (60 min)
1.25 oz Centennial [8.00 %] (25 min)
1.25 oz Centennial [8.00 %] (0 min)
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min)
1.30 lb Sugar, Table

Beer Smith gives me an OG of 1.121 for this (just like the 999 recipe). I pitched a large slurry of Pacman yeast with some White Labs Servomyces and it started fermenting very quickly and vigorously. It stayed between 66-68 the entire time of the initial fermentation.

Problem:
After nearly three weeks I did a gravity reading and found it at 1.072. I had just bottled another beer using Pac man so I pitched it's washed yeast into the barley wine with 1/4 lb of corn sugar. I also rasied the temperature to let it get between 68-72. It fermented for awhile and I took a gravity reading a week later: 1.072. I then pitched some rehydrated champagne yeast and let it for for a week. I checked and it was 1.062. After nearly 6 weeks on a (now very large) yeast cake, I transferred to secondary and pitched an active starter (at high krausen) of champagne yeast. It did nothing. Since then Ihave added more Servomyces and White Labs Yeast Nutrient. Nothing. I have another beer going with some WLP001 and I think I may rack the barley wine directly onto the cake once it finishes. This is the only thing I think I could do.

Issues:
-First, my "mini mash" attempt was probably nothing more than steeping A LOT of grains. Could there be this much unfermentable stuff from all those grains and perhaps it IS done somehow?

-I obviously did not treat this beer well since it stalled. Maybe I should have feed it the sugar while it was fermenting to keep things going? I am sure a bigger, healthier starter was in order for this high of a gravity.

So there is my dilemma. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!

 

[KAMMEE]

1 Teaspoon of amylase enzyme will help if there are still some starches that need to be broken down into sugars. At this point I would rack to another carboy on top of the amylase and see what happens. There is plenty of yeast in there to do the job, so don't keep pitching. Also, you may want to check your hydrometer to make sure its ok... just put it in water and make sure it reads 0 at 60 degrees. If it doesn't, then you know you need a new hydrometer and your readings have been off. This is probably unlikely but worth a check.

 

[bknifefight]

I should have mentioned that I have checked my hydrometers. Both read 1.000 in water and give the same results (1.062) in the barley wine.

Is there any concern with the amylase enzyme drying the beer out too much? I would like the SG to be lower but don't want it near 1.000. I don't even want it below 1.026 if possible.

 

[wyzazz]

With a beer that big I doubt that you'll get that dry, but if you do you can always add some Maltodextrine at bottling. It's unfermentable, will add to the gravity and body, and won't affect the taste of the beer.

 

[bknifefight]

What do you guys think the culprit is here for all the unfermentables?

 

[wyzazz]

I'm not sure that there are too many unfermentables in this batch, but usually DME is only around 75% fermentable so the Amylase can't hurt. I'd point the finger at a smallish or unhealthy yeast pitch. Now you've got to either get that yeast that you've got in there active (warm it up and rouse it), and give it some really easy/simple sugar to eat (dosing with amylase will break down the starches and complex sugars). OR, pitch on a really healthy/active yeast cake. I think either would get you down to where you want to be.

 

[Bentpirate]

Not that I have tried this; but I have friends that use BeanO when they experience this - research it before trying, but if nothing else, it will give you something to read and learn about

 

[marcycaulkins]

What brand dme did you use? I had a problem with some extract brews a while back (before getting ticked off and going back to all grain), and it turns out the brand of dme (which I believe is laaglander, but not positive at this point) was synonymous with stuck ferment. I ended up dumping 2 batches and throwing away the rest of the extract.

 

[Ichthy]

The one thing you didn't mention is the temp you are fermenting at. Have your tried raising the temp?

 

[bknifefight]

I'm not sure that there are too many unfermentables in this batch, but usually DME is only around 75% fermentable so the Amylase can't hurt. I'd point the finger at a smallish or unhealthy yeast pitch. Now you've got to either get that yeast that you've got in there active (warm it up and rouse it), and give it some really easy/simple sugar to eat (dosing with amylase will break down the starches and complex sugars). OR, pitch on a really healthy/active yeast cake. I think either would get you down to where you want to be.

If it was because of the yeast, I wonder why the champagne yeast didn't do much.

If I were to use the WLP001 yeast cake from my other beer, would it be worthwhile to just rack onto it or should I try to get it fermenting again as a "starter" and rack when it is at high krausen?

 

[bknifefight]

The one thing you didn't mention is the temp you are fermenting at. Have your tried raising the temp?

It's there, you just missed it. And yes, I have raised it.

And marcycaulkins, I use Briess DME and never have had an issue with it. I buy 50 lb bags and this is my 5th or 6th.

 

[Ichthy]

It's there, you just missed it. And yes, I have raised it.

Apologies for missing that.

 

[wyzazz]

If it was because of the yeast, I wonder why the champagne yeast didn't do much.

If I were to use the WLP001 yeast cake from my other beer, would it be worthwhile to just rack onto it or should I try to get it fermenting again as a "starter" and rack when it is at high krausen?

Champagne and Wine yeast isn't really able to eat the Maltose (Complex Sugars) that Beer yeast can. Not to say that it didn't eat any of the Maltose, but probably not too much. I'd try adding amylase and warming/rousing the fermenter first, then try racking on a fresh yeast cake.

 

[bknifefight]

Champagne and Wine yeast isn't really able to eat the Maltose (Complex Sugars) that Beer yeast can. Not to say that it didn't eat any of the Maltose, but probably not too much. I'd try adding amylase and warming/rousing the fermenter first, then try racking on a fresh yeast cake.

No worry about the yeast cake being sleepy? The beer that the cake is on now will probably finish fermenting in less than a week but I like to keep it in the primary for three before I bottle.

 

[wyzazz]

If you're not racking right on to that "awake" yeast cake then you may want to wake it up with a gallon of 1.040 wort to give it the best chance possible.

 

[bknifefight]

I ordered some amylase enzyme and will give that a try when it comes in the mail (probably by Monday). By the time I bottle my other beer, I will have an idea if the enzyme has worked and whether I should bother with the other yeast.

Thanks for your help everyone and I will update this thread with results and any other issues or questions.

 

[soundsandsuds]

You could try adding some yeast energizer/nutrient.

 

[bknifefight]

You could try adding some yeast energizer/nutrient.

I mentioned that I had tried this in the original post.

 

[bknifefight]

Ok, a quick update. A week ago I got my amylace enzyme and added some. I had boiled the recomended amount and added it only to find that it had turned from a powder to a chunk of enzyme. I rocked the carboy to get it to dissolve and all was well. Today I checked the gravity (a week later) and it has not dropped. My stout with a plentiful amount of WLP001 in it will be bottled in a week and a half and I will see if that yeast cake will help matters. If not, I am out of ideas.

 

[wyzazz]

By boiling the enzyme you denatured it, you'll want to dissolve it in lukewarm water and add directly to the fermenter. (Someone correct me if I'm mistaken.)

 

[bknifefight]

I boiled it because I believe the directions said to add it to the boil.

 

[wyzazz]

Mine just says 1tsp to 5 gallons.

 

[kanzimonson]

There's one thing nobody has commented on: the only grain you needed to mash was the Munich malt. Everything else is steepable. Maybe your mashing wasn't perfect, but I'm sure you got at least a little conversion. There's no way the entire source of your problem is a bunch of unfermentable staches/sugars from the Munich.

Unfortunately I don't really have any advice for all this craziness. It sounds like you've tried every experiment in the book. I am going to link to this post every single time somebody else thinks they can solve a stuck fermentation. Dump it and start again.

 

[Stellrbrewr]

Maybe someone already mentioned this and I missed it, but I don't think any of those grains in your mash have enough enzyme to convert the munich malt. The munich would have very very little, probably enough to convert a few ounces of it, but not nearly enough to do anything major. The rest of those malts all have the enzymes burnt out of them already. It looks to me like you just threw roughly 1.5 Lbs of unfermentable starches in by using the munich without a grain (2 row) that can convert it.

I've never used amalyse enzyme in a concentrated form before, but isn't its range of working basically 120F-160F? I'm not sure at room temp it would do anything. I would try the Beano route. Again I've never used it yet but my understanding is that it does break down unfermentables like an amalyse but at room temp.

 

[wyzazz]

Munich can self convert.

 

[Stellrbrewr]

It can self convert. However I thought I read that being such a highly kilned malt it was very protein poor, and did not have very many self-converting starches for a single infusion (which is what he did), and if its to be used it would surely need a protein rest first to develop the rest of the enzymes needed. Of course its just what I've read, could be entirely wrong.

 

[wyzazz]

Looking at the grain bill again, the munich should have at least halfway converted in that mash.

 

[kanzimonson]

For the love of satan, the Munich is probably not the problem here. Observe:

-Munich malt has about 35pppg.
-1.75# Munich x 35pppg = 61 gravity points
-61GU/5 gallons = 12

If ZERO of the Munich converted, it would only be contributing 12 points to the gravity reading. That doesn't even come close to explaining the huge FG reading.

SOMETHING weird is going on, but my bet is that it's not unfermentable sugars.

 

[kanzimonson]

EDIT: I didn't even take into account efficiency!

Let's say he did an amazing job and got 80% efficiency. 12GU * 80% = 9.6

No way it's unfermentables.

 

[bknifefight]

Dump it and start again.

Your advice is to dump it? There is no infection, it tastes pretty good for being this high gravity (still chimes in at around 7%) but could use more balance in the IBU department which I can change with isoHop. Dumping it is not an option, and unless there is an infection, it is never an option if you ask me.