Selling homebrew through local pub

[Nightshade]

No doubt it's illegal....I have serious doubts though that anyone would take the time/money to actually prosecute someone. It's along the same lines of kids selling baked goods at a lemonade stand. There is no doubt that it is illegal but no one wants to spend the time/money to enforce the law.

Until the bar undergoes a state audit and they see the numbers don't match from the distributor

State audits are not rare in the beer and liquor industry and if caught the bar and the homebrewer both get screwed under the same action.

 

[BigEd]

No doubt it's illegal....I have serious doubts though that anyone would take the time/money to actually prosecute someone. It's along the same lines of kids selling baked goods at a lemonade stand. There is no doubt that it is illegal but no one wants to spend the time/money to enforce the law.

No it's not like a lemonade stand. It's alcohol in a commercial establishment serving the general public. Odds are that the first beer salesman that figures out non-taxed, illegal beer is being sold on his turf will drop a dime. The pub stands to land in more hot water than the homebrewer starting with his local and/or state serving license.

 

[Phunhog]

Except you can find plenty of cases of cops busting lemonade stands.

Maybe where you live.....I can't imagine the s*&tstorm that would follow if my local PD tried to book some kids into juvenile hall for selling cookies and lemonade.

 

[Phunhog]

No it's not like a lemonade stand. It's alcohol in a commercial establishment serving the general public. Odds are that the first beer salesman that figures out non-taxed, illegal beer is being sold on his turf will drop a dime. The pub stands to land in more hot water than the homebrewer starting with his local and/or state serving license.

I'm sorry I didn't realize that they were selling it in commercial establishment. Yes...absolutely that is wrong! The "lemonade stand" comment was in respect to someone selling some to his neighbors.

 

[drives_a_bike]

I live in south Dakota and recently a friends father-in-law bought a local bar and put him in charge of the place. He said he would be totally up for selling me and my buddy's beer, so I looked into it. My buddy and I would have to get a manufacturing license and a distribution license. Which in SD only runs about $900 a year.

Not to mention hammering out a few flagship beers...and we'd need a place to brew that would pass health inspections (I doubt my shop would pass). Seem more trouble than it's worth for now.

 

[stinkmuis]

best and only way to do this, is to find yourself a micro brewery that have all the licences. talk to the owner and ask of he is willing to brew your recipe in small volumes. Then buy it from them for a good price. that way you are just a reseller and can trade your one beer with al the licences and taxes covert

 

[aiptasia]

Just give it away after hours. Call it a free pour.

 

[Phunhog]

My local brewery also has a homebrew shop attached to it. I think it would be a great marketing tool to have one homebrewer per month brew up a pilot batch and sell it in the tasting room. Of course it would have to be brewed on their pilot system vs. your home system. It would encourage people to get into the hobby since they can taste how good "homebrew" can be.

 

[JeepDiver]

It really just depends on the state. In Oklahoma (where I am from) it just has to be made on site in order to be sold there (for a bar who already has a liquor license). I would suggest just familiarizing yourself with your local laws and go from there...

No it doesn't just have to be made on site. It has to be made on site by a federally licensed brewery. So they don't just make homebrew and sell it, or if they do they better not get caught.

 

[JeepDiver]

Just give it away after hours. Call it a free pour.

Unlicensed beer in the bar will get his liqour license pulled, and possibly have him facing jail time, even if it is after hours

 

[GarageDweller]

setup in the alley behind the bar and undercut his prices. "just don't tell them where you got it from". wink wink...nudge nudge

p.s.

eff the police!

 

[govner1]

BAD advice all around!

 

[Phunhog]

Unlicensed beer in the bar will get his liqour license pulled, and possibly have him facing jail time, even if it is after hours

I wonder how they police this in states like CA where breweries can self-distribute. How do they know brewery XYZ is licensed? Especially if it is from out of the area or even out of the state.

 

[Hopper5000]

they will shut you down and then go look it up/research it. Might inconveniently take them a while to do that too...

 

[Oddball]

No it doesn't just have to be made on site. It has to be made on site by a federally licensed brewery. So they don't just make homebrew and sell it, or if they do they better not get caught.[/QUOTE

No actually it depends on the state...

 

[JeepDiver]

No it doesn't just have to be made on site. It has to be made on site by a federally licensed brewery. So they don't just make homebrew and sell it, or if they do they better not get caught.[/QUOTE

No actually it depends on the state...

No it doesn't. It is Federal law you have to have a FEDERAL license to brew beer. The state can require additional stuff, but they can't not allow you to brew without a federal license

 

[Oddball]

No it doesn't. It is Federal law you have to have a FEDERAL license to brew beer. The state can require additional stuff, but they can't not allow you to brew without a federal license

I have a friend who does it with mead in his bar and beer is soon to follow. He even uses his equipment from home. He was completely transparent in what he planned to do and all they required was a permit (around $1000) from the STATE...

 

[JeepDiver]

Then you friend better hope the feds don't come across him or someone gets pissed and turns him in. It is against the law to produce alcohol for commercial sale in the US without a federal permit. Period, end of story

 

[Oddball]

Then you friend better hope the feds don't come across him or someone gets pissed and turns him in. It is against the law to produce alcohol for commercial sale in the US without a federal permit. Period, end of story

Are you a lawyer in real life or just on the internet?

 

[EZCyclone]

JeepDiver is right Oddball, it's not a matter of being a lawyer at all. It's a federal law, one that is talked about in extensive "How to sell my beer" posts.

Why don't you have a look:
http://www.ttb.gov/beer/qualify.shtml

I'll even make it easier, please read this:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...;view=text;node=27:1.0.1.1.20;idno=27;cc=ecfr

It's very simply against the highest laws in the land to sell ANY alcohol without paying off the right government agency. Here is the rules for doing so. If your friend is selling his beer without this, I would not be in the bar when he does...

 

[bob1852]

Oddball is in Canada. Maybe his friend is too. Obviously different laws in our neighbor to the north...

 

[latium]

eff the police!

Yeah, Sting's solo work was much better.

I kid, I kid!

 

[Oddball]

JeepDiver is right Oddball, it's not a matter of being a lawyer at all. It's a federal law, one that is talked about in extensive "How to sell my beer" posts.

Why don't you have a look:
http://www.ttb.gov/beer/qualify.shtml

I'll even make it easier, please read this:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...;view=text;node=27:1.0.1.1.20;idno=27;cc=ecfr

It's very simply against the highest laws in the land to sell ANY alcohol without paying off the right government agency. Here is the rules for doing so. If your friend is selling his beer without this, I would not be in the bar when he does...

That second link didn`t make it any easier. There is a lot there to look through. All I see is information on starting a brewery/production of large quantities, not a bar making and selling small quantities. There isn`t a discrepancy there? It isn`t possible that it is recognized differently by state and federal officials alike? I am not sure why the State would neglect to mention this if in fact he needed a federal license, especially considering that he was completely upfront with his intentions. I am not the only one in the thread who has heard of this by the way....

 

[JeepDiver]

That second link didn`t make it any easier. There is a lot there to look through. All I see is information on starting a brewery/production of large quantities, not a bar making and selling small quantities. There isn`t a discrepancy there? It isn`t possible that it is recognized differently by state and federal officials alike? I am not sure why the State would neglect to mention this if in fact he needed a federal license, especially considering that he was completely upfront with his intentions. I am not the only one in the thread who has heard of this by the way....

No it is not different. If you make 12oz of alcohol for sale in the US of A you have to have a federal license.

 

[EZCyclone]

I must admit when I need too, I didn't see that you were in Canada, I know nothing at all of the laws there. I'm sorry Oddball. As far as in the US, it's very against the law. That said damn I wish we could!!!

 

[JeepDiver]

I must admit when I need too, I didn't see that you were in Canada, I know nothing at all of the laws there. I'm sorry Oddball. As far as in the US, it's very against the law. That said damn I wish we could!!!

The OP is in Ohio, on a board based in the US, so the assumption is we are talking about US laws. So not sure where Oddball's friend is located, but as far as the points of this thread, it is illeagle to sale homebrew to in the United States, and since he said the State his friend is in, not province or territory, then I am going to assume his firend is in the US. So if you don't want your friend to get in trouble, you need to tell him to find a lawyer to find the best course to get the proper license, or to stop selling home made alcohol

 

[Phunhog]

No it is not different. If you make 12oz of alcohol for sale in the US of A you have to have a federal license.

Yep....No exceptions!! What I question is the actual enforcement of these laws especially as it pertains to homebrew. Try as I might still haven't found a single case of a homebrewer being fined/cited/arrested for breaking the law. I am NOT saying you should or that it is the right thing to do. It is clearly illegal. But if past practices are any indication the police/TTB/ABC are not going to track you down either.

 

[strambo]

Yep....No exceptions!! What I question is the actual enforcement of these laws especially as it pertains to homebrew. Try as I might still haven't found a single case of a homebrewer being fined/cited/arrested for breaking the law.

Except we aren't talking about something federally recognized as "homebrew" (beer is beer), we are talking about a bar selling beer brewed illegally w/o the proper licences and taxes. Trading or selling your beer to your neighbor for a small price....low radar signature, probably will never be caught, local police may not care. Commercial beer sales from a bar, high radar signature, Fed and local govts who are missing out on the tax and permit revenue will care (once the miffed distributor rats you out).

 

[duboman]

To all that have mentioned the illegality of what is being proposed you are all correct. To those that think there is a way around this, there isn't and you all have to remember that any legal liquor establishment, retail or bar or restaurant, they all deal with distributors and if a distributor goes into an establishment and sees tap space or shelf space or whatever being taken by an unlicensed/illegally produced beverage they will report it and then you are screwed. Period.

It is not difficult to apply and be approved to be a licensed brewer. The fact remains that the government would like nothing more than for you to be successful and generate the liquor tax dollars you have to pay and post bond for. It is however a very time consuming process and requires upfront money just like any other business start up.

I currently have two fellow brewers in the final stages of getting their license and going pro with two new brewery/tap rooms so I have been following the process closely as I have been helping them with their set ups. It has taken both parties close to a year to get this far and both are shooting for May/June for their licensing to arrive. First and foremost, there is no way to avoid the Federal laws and they trump everything, then you need to not only deal with your individual state laws but local zoning and regulation ordinances that may also apply wherever you live.

As a side note, there have been many threads like this on this site and if the conversation continues with ways to try and skirt the laws the Mods will close the thread as suggestions of illegal activity on this site are against the rules.

 

[BoxMan]

I'm a little lazy to read all 6 pages of this thread, but would forming a nano brewery be easier?

http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml#b10

Sorry if this has been touched on - add and whatnot.