Seeking blending advice

[Nick Z]

I went a little nuts this year and got my hands on as many apples recommended for cider as I could. But I'm not sure how to blend them. I think I will end up with a gallon or two of each of the varieties I snagged.

Which are: Dabinett, Ashmead's Kernel, Arkansas Black, Hudson Golden Gem, Golden Russet, Winter Banana, Northern Spy, Winesap, Sptitzenburg, Jonagold, McIntosh, plus some eating apples from my own tree.

I know I need a balance of sugar, acid, and tannin. But I'm not sure how to blend them. I can test for total acidity and specific gravity but I can't test for tannins. There are almost no aromatics in anything I have gotten.

 

[ncguire]

Lucky to have so many different cider apples available to you without having to grow them yourself! Depending on how many fermenters you have and how much juice you end up with, I'd try fermenting them all as single varietals so you can see what each apple contributes and then blend from there. Many of them may make great cider by themselves, like Dabinett, Ashmeads, Arkansas Black, Golden Russet or Northern Spy.

Or just make an educated guess and blend them before fermenting. As a starting point, you can go for something like the link below, which mentions: 30-60% nuetral base, 10-20% tart, 10-20% aromatic, and 5-20% astringent. Source: Cider Apple Varieties - Cider School

As for aromatics, I don't think you can tell till they've been fermented, and even then the result will probably depend on a variety of factors, like the yeast, temperature, the fruit itself, etc.. And to the best of my knowledge, only Dabinett has a high level of tannins from the varieties you've listed. And for the others, I would test acidity and make sure the blends aren't too high, but it depends on the style you are going for. Claude Jolicoeur (who also has a great book on cider making) has some great recommendations here: http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/Documents/AppleBlendingCider.pdf

 

[madscientist451]

Are you making individual batches of all those varieties?
Or tying to figure out what apples to use together?
Exactly how many lbs or bushels of each do you have?

 

[Nick Z]

I was planning on mostly doing pre fermentation blending. I may try some post fermentation blending. I'm doing small batches (one to one and a half gallons). For most of what I listed I have about a gallon to a gallon and a half of juice.

Most of the apples came from a place called Kiyokawa Orchards in Hood River, Oregon. Nice folks. They even had some pre pressed crab apple juice (Dolgo and Manchurian crab) they put in the freezer.

I tested the specific gravity of some of the Golden Russet juice and it was 1.075. I was amazed an eating apple got that high.

 

[MtnGoatJoe]

Apples are usually divided between: Sweet, Sharp, Bitter, and Bitter Sharp (if memory serves). I would make a table of all your varieties, and then go for something like 50% sweet, 25% Sharp, and 25% bitter, with the bitter sharps swapped in with the sharps and bitters. BUT, you should definitely research that (I researched the topic several years ago, so my memory my not be accurate).

www.orangepippintrees.com has some information on the type of apples you have.

Good luck!

Ps. I pressed some jonagolds last weekend, and is absolutely delicious as juice. Easily the best I’ve ever had.

 

[Nick Z]

I checked through that site extensively. And several other lists. I am going by the English cider apple classification. The problem is that nothing I have, with the exception of a little Kingston Black, fits the category of sharp or bittersharp. I'm not even sure the eating apples can be classified as sweets (too much acid).

I think the lists only cover English cider apples. I don't think they classify American apples, especially American eating apples.

If I end up with too much acid I can use 71B yeast to knock some of it out.

 

[ncguire]

Don't overthink it. And don't be afraid to blend different batches together before bottling. You can take small samples of each and taste and mix. It's part of the fun. If some comes out too sharp, let it age and it may become much better later. Some people don't drink last year's cider till they start harvesting this years fruit. Or try letting it undergo malolactic fermentation, which will turn malic acid into lactic acid, which isn't as sharp. Sometimes this happens naturally (or you can use a culture).

 

[Nick Z]

Don't overthink it. And don't be afraid to blend different batches together before bottling. You can take small samples of each and taste and mix. It's part of the fun. If some comes out too sharp, let it age and it may become much better later. Some people don't drink last year's cider till they start harvesting this years fruit. Or try letting it undergo malolactic fermentation, which will turn malic acid into lactic acid, which isn't as sharp. Sometimes this happens naturally (or you can use a culture).

How would I know if it's doing malolactic fermentation? I introduced cultures into a couple of batches last year. But the cultures were old and I couldn't tell the difference after almost a year. I'm not even sure where I can get fresh cultures.

I always use sulphites unless the juice is pasteurized so I would assume the sulphites kill the malolactic bacteria?

 

[ncguire]

How would I know if it's doing malolactic fermentation? I introduced cultures into a couple of batches last year. But the cultures were old and I couldn't tell the difference after almost a year. I'm not even sure where I can get fresh cultures.

I always use sulphites unless the juice is pasteurized so I would assume the sulphites kill the malolactic bacteria?

Well, MLF is usually slower than primary fermentation, but you may be able to see tiny bubbles rising in the cider if you look closely. Not sure if it is enough for airlock activity or not. But I think the only sure way to know would be to take samples and do some kind of malic acid test. I have seen chromatography tests or test strips for sale that can be used for this, but never tried them myself. I've never bought cultures either, but I'm sure you can find them online or at your local winemaking/homebrew shop.

As for sulfites, malolactic bacteria aren't very tolerant of them, so people use them to prevent or halt MLF. But that is usually if it is added after primary. You can still have MLF if you use sulfites before your primary, as sulfites should dissipate enough during fermentation to allow it to occur. In that case though, if you want MLF, you probably want to use a culture, as the natural bacteria may have been killed off by the sulfites. But there is still a chance it can happen anyway without the culture, especially if the bacteria is in your equipment. I have heard cidermakers who say they always have MLF when they use certain barrels or plastic fermenters because it seems to live dormant in there even between batches. Other things to consider for MLF, is that it needs temperatures above 65F, and also may not happen if the cider ph is below 3.2 or something like that.

 

[Nick Z]

Thanks for the info. I try to keep my equipment cleaned and sanitized. I do use plastic buckets to ferment (and then rack into glass jugs) but those buckets get rotated between beer and cider and I always give them plenty of Star San before anything goes in them.

Don't the acid test kits just test total acidity? Not malic acid? I would assume that the lactic acid that the malic acid gets converted to would show up on the test. Hence the actual percentage of acid might not change with MLF. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ncguire]

There are tests specifically designed for MLF. They are usually used by winemakers, but I don't see why they wouldn't work with cider. Some tell you malic acid levels with test strip, so you would expect to see it decrease over time. Chromatography tests might show spots on a test paper that represent the different types of acid present, so in that case it would be complete when there is no malic acid indicator. No experience with either myself, a little too pricey for me.

 

[Nick Z]

There are tests specifically designed for MLF. They are usually used by winemakers, but I don't see why they wouldn't work with cider. Some tell you malic acid levels with test strip, so you would expect to see it decrease over time. Chromatography tests might show spots on a test paper that represent the different types of acid present, so in that case it would be complete when there is no malic acid indicator. No experience with either myself, a little too pricey for me.

All I have is the total acidity test where you throw in some sodium hydroxide in the test solution and look for a color change. I don't think that tests malic acid specifically.

Other tests are, as you said, too pricey

But I don't know if the total acidity test takes lactic acid from MLF into account.

 

[ncguire]

All I have is the total acidity test where you throw in some sodium hydroxide in the test solution and look for a color change. I don't think that tests malic acid specifically.

Other tests are, as you said, too pricey

But I don't know if the total acidity test takes lactic acid from MLF into account.

Right, I don't really know that either, but I would expect to see some change in a total acidity test before and after MLF. That is my hypothesis, anyway. Don't know for sure, but at least I think ph would change. I have a ph meter, maybe I will check when I get around to making cider this year should I decide to do a MLF with a batch. Just waiting for the temps in my garage to drop a bit more.

 

[cottonwoodks]

How exactly does one go about blending the ciders without introducing a bunch of oxygen?

 

[ncguire]

How exactly does one go about blending the ciders without introducing a bunch of oxygen?

A little bit of oxygen is inevitable, but here are some tips from my experience. Use small samples to taste and figure out your desired blend ratios beforehand and have a plan, that way you don't end up leaving it sitting out or in half full containers for too long. Don't pour it together. Blend into an empty container by racking, minimizing splashing as much as possible by placing the tubing at the bottom of the vessel while it fills. I used to practice siphoning with water because I would always screw it up when it was actual beer or cider. When you're done blending and ready to bottle, it is so much easier with a bottling bucket with spigot and one of those spring loaded bottle fillers attached. It allows you to fill the bottle from the bottom up and easily stop the flow for just the right amount.

 

[cottonwoodks]

A little bit of oxygen is inevitable, but here are some tips from my experience. Use small samples to taste and figure out your desired blend ratios beforehand and have a plan, that way you don't end up leaving it sitting out or in half full containers for too long. Don't pour it together. Blend into an empty container by racking, minimizing splashing as much as possible by placing the tubing at the bottom of the vessel while it fills. I used to practice siphoning with water because I would always screw it up when it was actual beer or cider. When you're done blending and ready to bottle, it is so much easier with a bottling bucket with spigot and one of those spring loaded bottle fillers attached. It allows you to fill the bottle from the bottom up and easily stop the flow for just the right amount.

Thank you! This is VERY helpful.