Secondary Needed? Pitch on Ale Slurry?

[smAllGrain]

Do I need to Secondary or can I get away with bottling after primary is complete?

I know yeast is cheap but Im on a budget. Have a cream ale that is ready to be bottled. Could I throw my cider onto the slurry with out having issues? Its us05 slurry.

Would I benefit from adding yeast nutrient, Tannin, pectic enzyme, & acid blend? Or should I just keep it simple?

Cider is from a local orchard & was "Flash Pasturized" with no additives

Thanks for any advice

 

[j1n]

Go ahead and bottle the cream ale, a secondary isn't really necessary unless your adding fruit, wood or just aging it for a long time. I would wash the yeast then pitch the right amount instead of just dumping on the cake. And yes add the yeast nutrient.

 

[smAllGrain]

Go ahead and bottle the cream ale, a secondary isn't really necessary unless your adding fruit, wood or just aging it for a long time. I would wash the yeast then pitch the right amount instead of just dumping on the cake. And yes add the yeast nutrient.

Say I didnt want to wash the yeast what is the concern with pitching right onto the slurry?

Any benefit with the other things listed? Pectic enzyme ect

Thanks

 

[chocotaco]

Not an expert with cider, but...

Yeast nutrient is helpful for wines, ciders and mead because they don't contain all of the yeast's yummies that grain wort does.

Pectic enzyme helps to break down pectins in the cider/juice that can cause haziness and can also cause higher levels of methanol (= hangover central)

Tannin is tannin. Gives a certain dry, wine-like mouthfeel.

Acid blend is for altering the taste of the final product. It's not necessary unless it's to your taste. Apple juice/cider naturally contains malic acid which gives it the characteristic "apple" taste, but some people like to boost the tartness/sharpness by adding more acid. It's a blend of citric acid (tartness), malic acid (apple/sharpness) and tartaric acid (wine-ness). I would say leave it out for your first batch and then adjust down the line if you want to.

 

[CJ1]

I prefer to have my cider spend some time in a secondary unless it won't be clear for some other reason (such as adding maple syrup to the final product, which is about my favorite thing to do).

 

[smAllGrain]

Not an expert with cider, but...

Yeast nutrient is helpful for wines, ciders and mead because they don't contain all of the yeast's yummies that grain wort does.

Pectic enzyme helps to break down pectins in the cider/juice that can cause haziness and can also cause higher levels of methanol (= hangover central)

Tannin is tannin. Gives a certain dry, wine-like mouthfeel.

Acid blend is for altering the taste of the final product. It's not necessary unless it's to your taste. Apple juice/cider naturally contains malic acid which gives it the characteristic "apple" taste, but some people like to boost the tartness/sharpness by adding more acid. It's a blend of citric acid (tartness), malic acid (apple/sharpness) and tartaric acid (wine-ness). I would say leave it out for your first batch and then adjust down the line if you want to.

Thank you for all the detail. I think I will leave out the tannin and acid blend on my first go around.

Any advice on issues I might have with pitching directly onto the us05 slurry?

 

[j1n]

I prefer to have my cider spend some time in a secondary unless it won't be clear for some other reason (such as adding maple syrup to the final product, which is about my favorite thing to do).

SEcondary he was talking about was for his cream ale.

Thank you for all the detail. I think I will leave out the tannin and acid blend on my first go around.

Any advice on issues I might have with pitching directly onto the us05 slurry?

You risk over pitching. Well you are over pitching if you dump onto the yeast cake. With beer you risk having a very thin to no body in the beer. not sure about cider but id imagine it should be similar.

With beer its acceptable to do that if you are fermenting a very high gravity beer. in most other cases its best to just pitch the right amount of slurry.

 

[ong]

Pitch on about a third of the slurry, would be my lazy advice, assuming you're doing about the same quantity of cider as your cream ale was.

 

[smAllGrain]

Pitch on about a third of the slurry, would be my lazy advice, assuming you're doing about the same quantity of cider as your cream ale was.

So my cream ale was a 3 gallon batch with the whole package of US05. My Cider would only be a gallon.

So you would suggest removing some of the slurry, 2/3, then dumping the cider onto the remaining slurry? For 1 gallon I guess I wouldn't need much yeast right?

 

[smAllGrain]

You risk over pitching. Well you are over pitching if you dump onto the yeast cake. With beer you risk having a very thin to no body in the beer. not sure about cider but id imagine it should be similar.

With beer its acceptable to do that if you are fermenting a very high gravity beer. in most other cases its best to just pitch the right amount of slurry.

What are your thoughts on removing 2/3 of the slurry? Do I risk not having enough yeast?

Shoot I may just get some more yeast. Anyone have a favorite? My wife really likes Crispin

Advice on either of these options are greatly appreciated. Hoping to get to my LHBS this afternoon.

Thanks

 

[j1n]

Nottingham Yeast works well with ciders.

Use the Mr.Malty yeast calculator to figure how much of the slurry you need to pitch.

 

[smAllGrain]

Nottingham Yeast works well with ciders.

Use the Mr.Malty yeast calculator to figure how much of the slurry you need to pitch.

This may be a foolish question but am I able to save\store an open package of yeast if I don't use the whole package? Or do I need to make a starter and wash the yeast to save it?

 

[j1n]

If its dry yeast i say just use it all. no need to save it for later. its cheap enough where i buy extra packets as back up. With liquid yeast i always make a starter cause the amount you get is almost never enough. I also make a big starter and save some of the yeast in a mason jar so i can use it later and not have to buy more.

 

[smAllGrain]

So I just looked on Mr Malty and it appears that I would need 2 grams for 1 gallon or I could use 1/2 a cup of my yeast slurry. This is if I am using the calculator correctly..... Does this look right?

 

[smAllGrain]

If its dry yeast i say just use it all. no need to save it for later. its cheap enough where i buy extra packets as back up. With liquid yeast i always make a starter cause the amount you get is almost never enough. I also make a big starter and save some of the yeast in a mason jar so i can use it later and not have to buy more.

If I use all of it do I risk the chance of over pitching?

 

[j1n]

No, not really. don't worry about over pitching from a dry yeast packet. a packet of dry yast vs a yeast cake is a huge difference in the amount of cells.

 

[ong]

So I just looked on Mr Malty and it appears that I would need 2 grams for 1 gallon or I could use 1/2 a cup of my yeast slurry. This is if I am using the calculator correctly..... Does this look right?

Yeah, you can just use a fraction of your yeast cake that way. You can even save the rest in sterilized Mason jars in the fridge.

 

[smAllGrain]

Yeah, you can just use a fraction of your yeast cake that way. You can even save the rest in sterilized Mason jars in the fridge.

For the sake of saving money and to experiment I think I will go with re-using 1/2 cup of my slurry. Worst case scenario I have to pitch some more yeast if my FG doesn't finish where I want correct?

 

[ong]

Well, worst case is more like the beer is horribly infected and spreads to the cider. Well, *worst* case would probably involve leprosy and hollow-eyed zombified farm animals, but that seems unlikely.

Re-pitching isn't a very likely outcome, either. The slurry should get you to a decent FG, it's just a matter of how the cider tastes. Assuming your slurry doesn't add too much flavor (hops & grain trub), should turn out ok.

 

[smAllGrain]

Well, *worst* case would probably involve leprosy and hollow-eyed zombified farm animals, but that seems unlikely.

Well you scared me out of it lol. Just picked up a Cote des Blanc Wine Yeast that the LHBS suggested.

I don't want anything to do with Walkers. I've seen Walking Dead lol

Appreciate the help with everything. Anyone ever used this yeast with a cider? LHBS said it would keep the cider a little sweeter.

 

[ong]

Huh, I would think a wine yeast would dry it out quite a bit more than an ale yeast. You can always backsweeten.