Secondary Fermentor

[Stonecold_OM]

So I have been home brewing for a few years now and I have done batches with both a secondary fermentor and without. I have used both a carboy for the secondary and used a 6.5 gallon bucket. From all I know, the best reason to move to a secondary is for the clarity of the beer. Any more I don't even mess with a secondary...especially a carboy. I HATE cleaning carboys! So I usually leave in the primary until I hit the FG I want (I use a Tilt hydrometer) and then I move to a keg to force carbonate.

I'm interested to know from everyone if you use a secondary and why? And if you don't, why?

 

[MaxStout]

Almost never. The extra racking is just one more chance to oxidize or infect my beer.

Only time I use a secondary is if I'm aging long-term (i.e., several months).

 

[hotbeer]

I still can't get over how many have the idea that you keg or bottle as soon as you hit FG.

I also wait until the beer starts to clean itself up. And that might be weeks after it hits FG. I just leave in in the primary and have gone for as long as six weeks. That actually was one of my best tasting beers IMO.

 

[Stonecold_OM]

I still can't get over how many have the idea that you keg or bottle as soon as you hit FG.

I also wait until the beer starts to clean itself up. And that might be weeks after it hits FG. I just leave in in the primary and have gone for as long as six weeks. That actually was one of my best tasting beers IMO.

Re-reading my post I see what I said that wasn't correct. I don't keg as soon as it hits the FG. But I don't move to a secondary. I usually let sit in the primary for a at least two weeks after I know it has hit the FG.

 

[micraftbeer]

I ferment in primary until my Tilt flatlines, then let it sit there for 3 days. If I'm dry hopping, I do that in primary.

I then do closed transfer to a purged keg, then stick that keg, with head pressure applied from CO2 tank into beer fridge or keezer to cold crash 2-3 days. That keg has a floating dip tube.

At that point I closed transfer again into another purged keg with a regular dip tube and that is then my serving keg. The cold crash drops a lot of yeast and such out of suspension which then gets left behind when I transfer out with the floating dip tube. Especially productive if that beer was dry hopped.

I don't do this for clarity, moreso for consistency in flavor and not have extra stuff (precipitate) sitting in my serving keg that I don't want to drink. So in my process, the child crash keg with floating dip tube is essentially a secondary. But it is easy to purge of oxygen and easy to sanitize.

Exception to the above process is when I ferment in my new FermZilla All Rounder. The whole fermentor did in my beer fridge, so I could crash in that and then transfer to serving keg.

 

[Golddiggie]

I've not used any secondary vessels for beers, for ever. Never had any 'cloudy' or not clear beer as a result. Since moving to conical fermenters, with a glycol chiller, I let the brew ferment fully, plus time depending on ABV/OG levels. I chill so that the yeast flocculates and I can harvest it. Once that's done, I can either age the batch (for the bigger beers or when adding oak elements) or carbonate in fermenter (2-4 days to carbonate to the correct level). I do a closed transfer of part of the finished (and ready to drink) beer into a serving keg and then use a Tapcooler to fill cans of the rest. I have some brews coming up that I also might fill bottles of, more for presentation than anything else. Those will get corks since I don't have a capper.

I'm looking to get another conical fermenter soon (this would be #3) so that I can have either a batch of cider, or mead, going along with my beer schedule. Two makes are in contention right now. There's a pretty significant price different between the two (the higher cost is about half again the cost of the other one). Plus I'd need to do more to get the higher priced one tied into a glycol chiller (it uses a jacket instead of chill coil).

Before going to conical fermenters, I was using kegmenters (started using those back in 2011). Never had an issue with getting clear beer at the end. Didn't use a secondary for that, for beers. For mead recipes, which age a LOT longer, I would transfer to another one periodically. I actually have five mead batches that I need to pull samples from to see how they've aged over the past 10-11 months (since last sampled). I'll either bottle, age more, or toss depending on those results.

BTW, one bit of advise for a new brewer. Don't be afraid to toss a batch that's not up to your standards. I dumped a batch recently because it ended up too thin. Not what I wanted from the batch, and not up to my standards. I'd rather dump than have a sub-standard brew on tap or in can. If you have a healthy pipeline, having to dump a batch won't be the end of the world.

 

[EthanH]

I'll secondary in a glass 5 gal carboy if:

1. I'm doing a Russian Imperial stout or something that's going to sit for 6 months.

2. I'm dry-hopping (which I almost always do-except for those stouts) and want to re-use the yeast cake for my next batch (which I sometimes do).

However, I have a very simple setup that doesn't have any kegs, CO2, or dedicated refrigeration anywhere in sight.

 

[IslandLizard]

So I usually leave in the primary until I hit the FG I want

[My emphasis]
You have very little control over the FG, the yeast determines it. FG means it's done fermenting, end of the road.

As long as there's no oxygen ingress or oxygen exposure, leaving it in the primary, under CO2, is very fine, and preferred over using secondaries.

I know this is now an open door for you, but I like to lay it out again. Hopefully for other readers who may not be aware.
Using secondaries, routinely, as most, if not all, kit instructions still contain verbiage as such is just a total travesty.
Transferring to secondaries, if and when desired for the right reasons, is an advanced brewing technique that needs careful planning and handling, or that beer will needlessly suffer, and badly in most cases.

 

[MaxStout]

Using secondaries, routinely, as most, if not all, kit instructions still contain verbiage as such is just a total travesty.

The cynic in me thinks it's the LHBS' way to sell one more piece of gear.
But then again, maybe it's just laziness of them reprinting the same instructions written in 1993.
/Hanlon's Razor, and all.

 

[Stonecold_OM]

You have very little control over the FG, the yeast determines it. FG means it's done fermenting, end of the road.

Yes you are correct and that was a mis-type on my part...though you can certainly control FG by ending it early! Though I don't know why you would do this unless the ABV is going to be much higher than you want. So really what I should have said: I leave it in the primary until I hit the FG.

The cynic in me thinks it's the LHBS' way to sell one more piece of gear.
But then again, maybe it's just laziness of them reprinting the same instructions written in 1993.
/Hanlon's Razor, and all.

You could be correct on this. When I started home brewing I just went along with the instructions and bought a kit that included the primary and the carboy secondary. Instructions said to rack into a secondary so that's what I did.

 

[IslandLizard]

When I need to use a secondary, sours, fruit, long bulk aging/conditioning, I now do a (semi-) closed transfer to a spare 100% liquid pre-purged keg. Whenever I need to lift the lid, I can re-purge the headspace easily.

I aged an Imperial Pumpkin Ale like that in my utility room for a year, and it became marvelous after the subtle spicing had nicely integrated. I did lose about a gallon... due to extended samplings.
An Iron Chef competition Rosemary Cucumber Saison did not improve all that much over a year, it remained a very acquired taste.

 

[tracer bullet]

When I need to use a secondary, sours, fruit, long bulk aging/conditioning, I now do a (semi-) closed transfer to a spare 100% liquid pre-purged keg. Whenever I need to lift the lid, I can re-purge the headspace easily.

Same here I'd say. The only thing I really let sit around after fermenting and before drinking are my Imperial Stouts. I move them from primary to a keg via a closed transfer and let them "age" in the keg. I can easily connect CO2 for an occasional taste test, and simply carb and frig when I decide it's time to start drinking them.

You could call that keg a secondary if you wanted. And so, yeah, some beers should sit. But as for moving it to another fermenter - forget it.

 

[D.B.Moody]

I have been exploring whether or not to continue using a secondary. I will start my third comparison tasting in two weeks. I have been reporting on my comparisons here: What does a secondary fermenter do?
I am out of step with current wisdom. I apparently like oxidized beer and find not doing a secondary creates problems. Of course the problems are because my equipment and routines assume a carboy secondary. Also, I only brew ales, mostly what would be classified as house bitters except that I bottle everything. Even my IPA is not hoppy by today's standards. I am still exploring this, but so far not using a secondary has not made any definite improvement except for hops being noticeable in an IPA that is older than my beers usually last. Doing a secondary clarifies the beer faster; I can see when it's ready to bottle (I don't take gravity readings); and there's less sediment in the bottles. Lastly, it is quite possible that I am so used to the taste of my brews that have been subjected to a secondary, that that is what I like, and other people might run away in horror.

 

[tracer bullet]

... Even My IPA is not hoppy by today's standards. I am still exploring this, but so far not using a secondary has not made any definite improvement except for hops being noticeable in an IPA that is older than my beers usually last. ...

I think those are key points. The more hops you add and the later you add them (i.e. the "juicy" flavors), the more important it becomes. There is more to lose and it begins more quickly. For your beers and palate your method may be just fine and if it is no one should tell you otherwise.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I don’t use the term secondary fermentation. My fermentation gets completed in primary. Then depending on the beer, it might get transferred to a conditioning keg. I do mostly RIS, Barley Wines and Belgians, so most of my brews are in the 9% to 17% range and I incorporate a 3 to 6 month conditioning phase at 10C for those beers.

I’ve invested a lot of effort to get a process where I can move from primary all the way through to bottle with virtually zero oxygen. The conditioning process is definitely working well for me. I’m making some great beers and they’re scoring well with the judges too. So there’s a place for secondary/conditioning with the right beers when done properly.

 

[jrgtr42]

The only time I do secondary is if I need to bulk-age for extended times, like a year.
I have only one recipe that needs that - a sour, so the small amount of oxygen that gets in there actually helps the souring process.
Even BBA beers I won't age on the oak more than a month or so, so those stay in primary, for a total maybe 6 to 7 weeks.

 

[thomer]

I am new to brewing and have been using kits to find my 'sea legs' and they pretty much all recommend a secondary. Good to know from the experts that you do not need to use one except for longer term aging. I was always concerned about this extra step causing contamination.

 

[Stonecold_OM]

So I am very glad that I started this thread as it has produced a lot of very good discussion on the topic. Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this topic as all of your expertise is appreciated. I still brew using extract kits as I've not invested the money into all grain brewing yet. Instead, I've invested some money into kegging. Mainly because I hate bottling and much prefer to go pull a pint of draft over opening, cleaning, and sanitizing all the bottles.

All the talk about closes transfer has gotten me to thinking I still have more to invest as I don't have things in place for a closed transfer system. But that also leads me to believe that I'm not wrong in not using a secondary and just waiting for the yeast to finish, letting it sit, then moving to a keg. At the moment, the only real reason that I can see to move to a secondary is if you are adding hops, fruit, etc. Or lagering. With lagering I would move to a secondary and then toss in the keggerator for the long term conditioning that a good lager needs.

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO/IME adding hops to a beer in fermenter is NOT a reason to move it to another vessel. I added 1.5oz of hops to my English bitter last night (chilled to 50F). Today, around noon) I set it to chill to carbonating temperatures (38F). It's now on the CO2 feed (through the stone) to carbonate over the next few days. I harvested the yeast out of the fermenter last night (conical, so just needed to dump it into the jar). Which means that once carbonation is done, and I've let it rest for a day (or so) I can move the clear beer into keg and can (no trub picked up). Having the racking arm leave .6 gallons behind means it's easy to get clear beer into packaging.

With the right hardware you can have the brew go through it's entire life cycle from pitch to packaging in the same vessel. I plan to make a batch of mead before the end of the year that will also use one of the conicals. It will be far easier to remove the yeast (when it's time) this way. I'm looking to make a lower ABV recipe (about 11%) this time. The mead will only be started after I've made the cider that I have planned for this season. So it might not actually get started until after the new year.

 

[thomer]

o I am very glad that I started this thread as it has produced a lot of very good discussion on the topic. Thank you to everyone that has contributed to this topic as all of your expertise is appreciated. I still brew using extract kits as I've not invested the money into all grain brewing yet. Instead, I've invested some money into kegging. Mainly because I hate bottling and much prefer to go pull a pint of draft over opening, cleaning, and sanitizing all the bottles.

All the talk about closes transfer has gotten me to thinking I still have more to invest as I don't have things in place for a closed transfer system. But that also leads me to believe that I'm not wrong in not using a secondary and just waiting for the yeast to finish, letting it sit, then moving to a keg. At the moment, the only real reason that I can see to move to a secondary is if you are adding hops, fruit, etc. Or lagering. With lagering I would move to a secondary and then toss in the keggerator for the long term conditioning that a good lager needs.

We are in the same situation my friend. I started about 8 months ago and have been using kits and a mix of Carboys and Catalysts. At least a Catalyst makes secondary fermenting easier and safer if you need to do it. I too am looking at conical fermenters with a closed system. I have been using bottles and am sick of cleaning so my next purchase will be kegs as well.

 

[GoodTruble]

I know I'm in the minority - I originally did not use a secondary but then switched to using one. I agree with everyone above that secondary generally isn't needed and can cause more problems than it solves.

Once I had closed-transfer-capable fermenters, I started transferring beer to purged kegs after 7-10 days. I do it to free up the fermenter and get that larger trub-filled fermenter cleaning out of the way sooner. It also allows me to skip gravity readings if I want because the fermentation can just finish up in the keg, which can just sit for weeks until I get around to bottling (yes, I transfer to kegs and then still bottle =c) ). It is also easier for me to cold crash in kegs.

This also allows me more freedom to brew the next batch without having to wait for a long fermentation to finish in the fermenters.

However, this is just functional & more convenient for my setup. I don't think it improves the beer (nor make it worse).

 

[tracer bullet]

I don't have things in place for a closed transfer system.

If you can fill a keg, you just might. Or, at least, it really takes very little.

I'll grab a random picture off the internet. Thanks to whoever posted it. You basically take the output of your fermenter and run it into the keg (specifically the "out" side so it'll run down the pipe to the bottom without splashing). Then return the gas side to the top of the fermenter to close the loop. Beer goes down, air comes up. There are some fittings involved but you may already have them and if not they are quite cheap.

https://external-preview.redd.it/Go...bp&s=da93f27c137245bf282052f8695f9ca302e0a05a

 

[madscientist451]

No secondary for me: ferment in keg, closed transfer to serving keg, and start drinking it......

 

[Golddiggie]

If you can fill a keg, you just might. Or, at least, it really takes very little.

I'll grab a random picture off the internet. Thanks to whoever posted it. You basically take the output of your fermenter and run it into the keg (specifically the "out" side so it'll run down the pipe to the bottom without splashing). Then return the gas side to the top of the fermenter to close the loop. Beer goes down, air comes up. There are some fittings involved but you may already have them and if not they are quite cheap.

https://external-preview.redd.it/Go...bp&s=da93f27c137245bf282052f8695f9ca302e0a05a

You can also terminate the gas side of the keg into a container (bucket, etc.) of Starsan. This won't be a 'full loop' but the container of sanitizer means nothing gets in. I use that when filling the conical as well as kegs later. I use a transparent gas line on that fitting so that I can see when the beer foam is coming out. Of course, with chilling the beer, I can also watch the level go up due to the condensation on the side. So I'm not just watching for beer foam.

As with most things in the home brewing world (or even brewing professionally), there's more than one right way to do things.

 

[oakbarn]

I'll secondary in a glass 5 gal carboy if:

1. I'm doing a Russian Imperial stout or something that's going to sit for 6 months.

2. I'm dry-hopping (which I almost always do-except for those stouts) and want to re-use the yeast cake for my next batch (which I sometimes do).

However, I have a very simple setup that doesn't have any kegs, CO2, or dedicated refrigeration anywhere in sight.

I secondary in a ice cold 12 oz. Glass for about a minute.

 

[Stonecold_OM]

If you can fill a keg, you just might. Or, at least, it really takes very little.

I'll grab a random picture off the internet. Thanks to whoever posted it. You basically take the output of your fermenter and run it into the keg (specifically the "out" side so it'll run down the pipe to the bottom without splashing). Then return the gas side to the top of the fermenter to close the loop. Beer goes down, air comes up. There are some fittings involved but you may already have them and if not they are quite cheap.

https://external-preview.redd.it/Go...bp&s=da93f27c137245bf282052f8695f9ca302e0a05a

Thanks for posting that. I see how that would work and is rather easy. I would just have to change my fermenter. I use a 6.5 gallon bucket which doesn't have a way to transfer like that. So it may be time for an upgrade.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[...] but then switched to using one [...]

Makes sense.

The two concerns regarding transfers between containers are 1) contamination and 2) oxygen ingress.

Proper sanitation and closed transfers mitigate both concerns.

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks for posting that. I see how that would work and is rather easy. I would just have to change my fermenter. I use a 6.5 gallon bucket which doesn't have a way to transfer like that. So it may be time for an upgrade.

My only regret around moving to conical fermenters is not doing it sooner.

 

[tracer bullet]

Thanks for posting that. I see how that would work and is rather easy. I would just have to change my fermenter. I use a 6.5 gallon bucket which doesn't have a way to transfer like that. So it may be time for an upgrade.

You could drill a hole and add a valve. The plastic valves are pretty cheap.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

ferment for 4 days, bottle, drink in a further 4 days, crystal clear but maybe a little low on gassiness.