Second All Grain Misses OG

[Weissbier]

Well not by much, I was trying to clone Southampton Double White. I ended up at 1.05 after temperature correction, any ideas, am I missing something? Here is the Beersmith recipe. After 5 days this beer smell amazing, almost spot on.

Ejection Seat Wheat "Holy Wit!"
Witbier


Type: All Grain
Date: 1/1/2010
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Chris Wilkens
Boil Size: 6.80 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Cooler (48 qt)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 3.70 %
7.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 51.85 %
4.00 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 29.63 %
2.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 14.81 %
0.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 20.9 IBU
0.50 oz Mt. Hood [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
1.00 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Lemon Zest (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) Yeast-Wheat



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.071 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.018 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.98 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 31.0 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 5.0 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 13.50 lb
Sparge Water: 4.45 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 180.0 F TunTemperature: 80.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 16.88 qt of water at 173.8 F 158.0 F



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage

Created with BeerSmith

 

[JMSetzler]

There are a LOT of possibilities for your error. Do you know what your efficiency is? How much wort did you collect from your mash? How much wort went into the fermenter? These volumes may help determine why your gravity is low. My estimation is that either one of those two volumes is too high or your mash efficiency is extremely low.

 

[gunhaver]

this thread title reads like a headline from The Onion

 

[Bensiff]

Your numbers are messed up. Says your estimated SG should be 1.071 and then says actual SG was 1.010.

Missing OG from 1.071 and ending up with 1.050 is not a small amount. Did you miss by 20 points on your first AG as well? I think we need more information to help you out here. Temp control? Crush quality? Sparge technique? Manifold design? etc...

 

[Weissbier]

this thread title reads like a headline from The Onion

That had me cracking up...

Here is an updated beersmith recipe...Ive just learned to use it and didn't realize that it will calculate efficiency. First all grain batch was a disaster, stuck sparge, temp problems...I almost scratched the batch. Now my equipment is dialed in, 50QT cooler, SS braid, preheated MLT, keggle. I didnt measure how much wort went into the keggle, but after a 60 minute boil, I was at an exact 5 gallons. Grains came from Northen Brewer, crushed. I guess that could have contributed to the low efficiency, I did notice quite a few hulls that were still whole.

Ejection Seat Wheat "Holy Wit!"
Witbier


Type: All Grain
Date: 1/1/2010
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Chris Wilkens
Boil Size: 6.80 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Cooler (48 qt)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 3.70 %
7.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 51.85 %
4.00 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 29.63 %
2.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 14.81 %
0.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 20.9 IBU
0.50 oz Mt. Hood [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 7.4 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
1.00 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 items Lemon Zest (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Belgian Witbier (Wyeast Labs #3944) Yeast-Wheat



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.071 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.018 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.98 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.86 %
Bitterness: 31.0 IBU Calories: 217 cal/pint
Est Color: 5.0 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 13.50 lb
Sparge Water: 4.45 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 180.0 F TunTemperature: 80.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 16.88 qt of water at 173.8 F 158.0 F



Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage



Notes

add zest of one lemon at 10 mins.
Created with BeerSmith

 

[ajf]

I calculate your efficiency at about 54%, but there are a number of things that could explain that.
First, you are using 7 lbs pale malt with 6 lbs adjuncts. That's an awful lot of adjuncts for 7 lbs 2 row to convert. You may not have got full conversion of the wheat and oats.
Next, Have you ever calibrated your hydrometer. It should read 1.000 in water at 60F. If it reads lower, you need to add the difference to every gravity reading.
How accurate is your thermometer? At the temperature you mashed at, if you thermometer was reading low, the actual temperature could be so high that the enzymes were denatured.
Have to have dinner now or SWMBO will beat me up.

-a.

 

[Weissbier]

Efficiency as calculated by beersmith was 52.87%. I calibrated my hydrometer the day before as well as tested my http://www.amazon.com/Tru-Temp-Digital-Thermometer-3518/dp/B000VK98UM digital thermometer against my analog one. Occams razor, I'm starting to think it has to do with an insufficient crush.

AJF, nice to see another Islander here! Where are you from?

 

[Bsquared]

Occams razor, I'm starting to think it has to do with an insufficient crush.

Your crush would have to be REALLY bad to drop you down that far. Most of these home brew shops seem to have the crush fairly well dialed, especially the bigger Internet like brew masters warehouse and norther brewer.

Have you checked your dead space in your cooler? If you are leaving a few quarts behind in the cooler after your sparge that can effect your SG significantly.

As for Batch sparging, how fast are you doing this? Are you mixing the mash well and letting grain bed settle for a bit before draining? Are you draining full open or half open? I found that if you drain the mash faster than 10-15min the sugars don't get a chance to fully dissolve into the wort and stick in the grain bed.

Just some thoughts for you to look in to.

 

[Weissbier]

Have you checked your dead space in your cooler? If you are leaving a few quarts behind in the cooler after your sparge that can effect your SG significantly.

As for Batch sparging, how fast are you doing this? Are you mixing the mash well and letting grain bed settle for a bit before draining? Are you draining full open or half open? I found that if you drain the mash faster than 10-15min the sugars don't get a chance to fully dissolve into the wort and stick in the grain bed.

Just some thoughts for you to look in to.

I don't think that I could have left more than a quart in the cooler, after sparging and a 60 minute boil I ended up with exactly 5 gallons. Couldn't have been more dead on. I use a 3/8" tubing to drain the MLT and I would say it was right in that 10-15 minute time frame.

Could a 90 minute mash be the answer?

 

[Bsquared]

Did you do an Iodine test to see if you fully converted your starches? For the most part 60min should be enough.

Did you check your pH too. Your grain bill dose not look like it would effect your pH, but if the water you were using was acidic that might effect your SG too.

One other thing, I'm just trying to touch on every thing to try and help you narrow in on it. What temperature did you take your gravity reading at?

 

[Bsquared]

I don't think that I could have left more than a quart in the cooler, after sparging and a 60 minute boil I ended up with exactly 5 gallons.

Wait a second here...I looked back at you recipe and I said that your pre boil volume was 6.8 gallons. If you only ended up with 5 gallons after 1hr, that is a 27% evaporation rate. That is really high, you should be expecting a 15% evaporation rate. This should leave you with 5.78 gallons after the boil. If you are leaving behind 3 quarts that might be it.

 

[Weissbier]

Gravity reading was taken at 72 degrees, so even with temp correction it cant be that far off. I just checked my equipment profile and my evaporation rate was set at 11%.

Now you got me thinking...There was no way that three quarts were left behind. I had my valve wide open after a 60 minute mash, 15 minutes later the wort was dripping out very slowly. Something isn't adding up....

1/2 pound of rice hulls had the mash draining like crazy.

 

[ajf]

Efficiency as calculated by beersmith was 52.87%. I calibrated my hydrometer the day before as well as tested my http://www.amazon.com/Tru-Temp-Digital-Thermometer-3518/dp/B000VK98UM digital thermometer against my analog one. Occams razor, I'm starting to think it has to do with an insufficient crush.

AJF, nice to see another Islander here! Where are you from?

I'm from Ridge. Where are you?

If you want, I'd be happy to come over and watch you brew sometime, and see if I can see anything wrong. I could also bring my grain mill (I get over 80% efficiency with that) to eliminate the crush as a cause of the problem.

-a.

 

[Weissbier]

I'm from Ridge. Where are you?

If you want, I'd be happy to come over and watch you brew sometime, and see if I can see anything wrong. I could also bring my grain mill (I get over 80% efficiency with that) to eliminate the crush as a cause of the problem.

-a.

I'm in Wantagh, its a little bit of a drive but if I cant get this efficiency thing worked out I may take you up on your offer. Bsquared and myself might be moving in the right direction with either my evaporation rate or my mash holding almost 3 extra quarts. Any ideas???

 

[Bsquared]

What you need to do is fill up your mash tun with water, and drain it. see how much water is left behind. You are using a steel braid so, as soon as your braid gets above your liquid level it will loose suction and stop draining.

I use a pick up tube in my cooler that will maintain suction even as the liquid level gets below the ball valve. It still leaves behind about a quart.I just make adjustments for that in my grain bill.

 

[Weissbier]

What you need to do is fill up your mash tun with water, and drain it. see how much water is left behind. You are using a steel braid so, as soon as your braid gets above your liquid level it will loose suction and stop draining.

One step ahead of you, on my preheat I checked that. No more than 1/3 quart was left behind, I slip a book under the back edge to tilt the cooler. My valve is drilled through a low spot in the cooler, all the wort collects there.

http://www.target.com/Igloo-Ice-Cube-50-75-Cooler/dp/B000YIPGWU

Now Im really confused

 

[ajf]

I'm in Wantagh, its a little bit of a drive but if I cant get this efficiency thing worked out I may take you up on your offer. Bsquared and myself might be moving in the right direction with either my evaporation rate or my mash holding almost 3 extra quarts. Any ideas???

Sure, if you want me to come over and you brew on weekends, send me a PM with about 1 weeks notice, and I'll be happy to help. If you can get it sorted out with Bsquared, that would be great too.
FWIW, I usually start my boil with 7 gal, and boil for 75 min. Under these conditions, I end up with 5.25 gal collected in the fermenter with very little left in the kettle. This is very close to your figures, but I use whole hops which absorb a whole bunch of wort. Taking this into consideration, I don't think your boil off rate is excessive, but I boil for an extra 15 minutes, and use whole hops; both of which make a difference.

-a.

 

[Weissbier]

I'm starting to think that a poor crush compounded by 4lbs of flaked wheat and 2 lbs of flaked oats may be the culprit. Flaked wheat and oats absorb a ton of water, I very well could have lost the remaining 3 quarts there. Something I may just have to compensate for. I do not believe that it is an equipment problem, it has to be something between beersmith, the recipe and a possible poor crush.

 

[RichBenn]

No offense, but you need to take VERY careful measurements at every stage:
1. Amount of water added to the mash, and temperature (after stirring for a few minutes, and at the end)
2. Adjusted S.G. of first wort
3. Amount of water and temp for each sparge add.
4. Pre-boil total volume, adjusted S.G. and temperature
5. Post boil total volume, adjusted S.G. and temperature
6. The exact amount of time you boiled.

Note that the volume of water goes up about 4% between room temp and near boiling.

With all this information, you can pinpoint efficiency problems. There is a wiki (sorry, don't have the URL right now) that a member here made on efficiency that is kind of the bible for that. It's got all the things you need to know. Read it before your next brew. (Someone chime in with the URL if you know it)

Like others said, 50% is not just the crush. If you capture more information, it can be pinpointed.

 

[Weissbier]

No offense, but you need to take VERY careful measurements at every stage:
1. Amount of water added to the mash, and temperature (after stirring for a few minutes, and at the end)
2. Adjusted S.G. of first wort
3. Amount of water and temp for each sparge add.
4. Pre-boil total volume, adjusted S.G. and temperature
5. Post boil total volume, adjusted S.G. and temperature
6. The exact amount of time you boiled.

Note that the volume of water goes up about 4% between room temp and near boiling.

With all this information, you can pinpoint efficiency problems. There is a wiki (sorry, don't have the URL right now) that a member here made on efficiency that is kind of the bible for that. It's got all the things you need to know. Read it before your next brew. (Someone chime in with the URL if you know it)

Like others said, 50% is not just the crush. If you capture more information, it can be pinpointed.

Almost all of these questions are answered in the beersmith recipe that I pasted earlier except for #2 and #4. I will revisit this recipe in another week or so (yes it is that good!), I will take accurate measurements so we can fill in the blanks. In the mean time, I am going to study that WIKI.

1. Amount of water added to the mash, and temperature (after stirring for a few minutes, and at the end) 16.88 qt of water at 173.8 F
2. Adjusted S.G. of first wort
3. Amount of water and temp for each sparge add. Sparge Water: 4.45 gal 180 F
4. Pre-boil total volume, adjusted S.G. and temperature
5. Post boil total volume, adjusted S.G. and temperature 5 Gallons 1.05
6. The exact amount of time you boiled. 60 minutes

Just for arguments sake, here is what the crush looked like...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Crush_uneven.jpg

 

[Bsquared]

Is it right your fermentables where:
7Lb 2-row
4Lb Flaked Wheat
2Lb Flaked Oats

I calculate that for a 5 gallon batch, starting with a 6.8 gallon boil, transferring 5.25 gallons. You will have a SG of 1.061. And if I put those numbers in for my volumes, 6.8 pre-boil, 6 gallon transfer, I get 1.054.

I think you might have a few settings off in your program, like brew house efficiency. Also some it sounds like some of you water additions might have been slightly off to, because 27% evaporation is quite high.

Brewing software is a good tool, but I would highly recommend that you go through the brewing calculations with a paper and pen once or twice and compare what you get and what the program gets. It's defaults wont necessarily be your brewhouse defaults.

Make sure you have a calibrated way to measure your volumes going into your kettle, like a sight glass or a calibrated metal ruler and calculate what your true evaporation rate is.

I really think you where around 75-80% efficiency, but you have a couple calculations that are off, and your volumes might be 10% off too contributing the difference you see.

good luck.

 

[Weissbier]

I really think you where around 75-80% efficiency, but you have a couple calculations that are off, and your volumes might be 10% off too contributing the difference you see.

good luck.

Bsquared, you are my hero. Now I need to mess with beersmith more. Cant thank you enough for the help, now I have something to go on.