Scratched Inside Bottling Bucket

[derekp83]

I know that in general this question has been covered, but to be specific, I'm wondering about the risk of contamination to my beer when I'm simply using the bucket for bottling.

My father in law drilled a hole in a 2 gallon bucket for me, and due to it being kind of raw, I used a nail filer to smooth the inside of the hole, but unfortunately, in the process, I stratched the inside of the bucket (below the hole).

Is the bucket ruined? Should I replace it? Again, I'm only using it to bottle, not ferment. Thanks

 

[aiptasia]

Just like scratching an acrylic aquarium, there's no cure for a scratch in your equipment. Buckets are cheap, replace it.

 

[J187]

Yes, a scratched bucket is no good. Get yourself a new one and just got a bottling bucket with the spigot already on or the hole already drilled.

 

[eastoak]

unless you have a really deep gouge you can safely use a scratched bucket. many people on these boards have been using the same scratched buckets for a decade or more with no problems. all of my buckets are scratched and i ferment sour and clean beers in all of them. while some may think it's a matter of "taking chances" it's been repeatedly demonstrated to be a non issue.

 

[derekp83]

No, I wouldn't say I gouged it. Again, it was a nail filer. When I rub my finger on the scratched spot it is kind of similar to the feeling of an item that had a sticky tag on it removed. I'm going to use this til there's a problem because I'm doing small batches.

 

[J187]

For $14, I'd replace it. Some have been able to avoid problems and others haven't, is it really risk even a minor risk of wasting $30-50 in ingredients and 3-6 hours of your labor and 4 weeks of your patience?

 

[eastoak]

For $14, I'd replace it. Some have been able to avoid problems and others haven't, is it really risk even a minor risk of wasting $30-50 in ingredients and 3-6 hours of your labor and 4 weeks of your patience?

i see what you are saying but what do you do if you replace the bucket then get an infection down the road? toss that one and buy another? i think good sanitation makes way more sense than tossing money at fermentors. i settled this issue for myself by going ahead and using my scratched buckets and continuing a good sanitation regime, that is really the best way to get a definitive answer. had i just accepted the conventional wisdom i would have never known for sure what the truth was or was not.

 

[J187]

i see what you are saying but what do you do if you replace the bucket then get an infection down the road? toss that one and buy another? i think good sanitation makes way more sense than tossing money at fermentors. i settled this issue for myself by going ahead and using my scratched buckets and continuing a good sanitation regime, that is really the best way to get a definitive answer. had i just accepted the conventional wisdom i would have never known for sure what the truth was or was not.

No, of course not. I wouldn't toss a bucket simply because my beer got infected, but that's hardly akin to seeing and feeling a scratch. For $14, it's just not worth the risk to me. Scratches can harbor bacteria that the sanitizer simply misses or cannot adequately get at. The thing is, just because you've been using a scratched bucket without getting an infection, that doesn't mean that scratched buckets are not prone to infection... it means that you haven't had that misfortune. I know a guy who as a new brewer never thought to sanitize his autosiphon. He made probably like 8 brews before it ever came up, nothing was ever infected but I wouldn't recommend he continue doing it. Just my opinion, but for $14 to cure a known risk, I'd do it.

 

[eastoak]

No, of course not. I wouldn't toss a bucket simply because my beer got infected, but that's hardly akin to seeing and feeling a scratch. For $14, it's just not worth the risk to me. Scratches can harbor bacteria that the sanitizer simply misses or cannot adequately get at. The thing is, just because you've been using a scratched bucket without getting an infection, that doesn't mean that scratched buckets are not prone to infection... it means that you haven't had that misfortune. I know a guy who as a new brewer never thought to sanitize his autosiphon. He made probably like 8 brews before it ever came up, nothing was ever infected but I wouldn't recommend he continue doing it. Just my opinion, but for $14 to cure a known risk, I'd do it.

so if you see and feel the scratch it's risky but if you don't it's not risky? that what is sounds like you are saying. i claim every plastic item used in homebrewing probably scratched. now, are there degrees of scratching that should cause alarm? the point i'm trying to make in this reasoned discussion (which i thank you for having ) is this: if you or anyone else thinks that a scratch bucket is risky then why not test it? it that not the best way to know for sure? testing theories/hypothesis is what science is all about and this seems to be a really easy one to test. i have yet to find a yeast or bacteria that was able to survive soap and star san or a scratch that could harbor said bacteria. the scratched bucket theory does make sense since it provides a very reasonable sounding explanation, a cognitive map if you will, for an event, a wild yeast/bacteria infection, that is of unknown origin. people want to know "where did it come from?" and the scratched bucket theory may satisfy that need. it makes sense that bacteria could hide if some tiny place: threads, corners, scratches and so on. i'm not disputing this what i'm saying is that having a scratch (not a deep gouge like i said before) or a rough surface is not taking any chances at all if you are cleaning and sanitizing your equipment. if you take a knife and bury it into the side of a fermentor the deepest point may be small enough for a bubble to form, in theory, and keep whatever is hiding there safe from harm but not a surface scratch or rough area from a file. i bet most infections come from sources outside the fermentor; our hands, mouth, hair, a valve or hose.

i am not wedded to my position and would certainly change my mind if the facts before me change but in the 3 years i've been fermenting sour beer using the same gear as my clean beer this has not happened even once. i would not consider myself lucky at this point, too many batches have been fermented for me to consider that i've merely been lucky.

 

[J187]

so if you see and feel the scratch it's risky but if you don't it's not risky? that what is sounds like you are saying. i claim every plastic item used in homebrewing probably scratched. now, are there degrees of scratching that should cause alarm? the point i'm trying to make in this reasoned discussion (which i thank you for having ) is this: if you or anyone else thinks that a scratch bucket is risky then why not test it? it that not the best way to know for sure? testing theories/hypothesis is what science is all about and this seems to be a really easy one to test. i have yet to find a yeast or bacteria that was able to survive soap and star san or a scratch that could harbor said bacteria. the scratched bucket theory does make sense since it provides a very reasonable sounding explanation, a cognitive map if you will, for an event, a wild yeast/bacteria infection, that is of unknown origin. people want to know "where did it come from?" and the scratched bucket theory may satisfy that need. it makes sense that bacteria could hide if some tiny place: threads, corners, scratches and so on. i'm not disputing this what i'm saying is that having a scratch (not a deep gouge like i said before) or a rough surface is not taking any chances at all if you are cleaning and sanitizing your equipment. if you take a knife and bury it into the side of a fermentor the deepest point may be small enough for a bubble to form, in theory, and keep whatever is hiding there safe from harm but not a surface scratch or rough area from a file. i bet most infections come from sources outside the fermentor; our hands, mouth, hair, a valve or hose.

i am not wedded to my position and would certainly change my mind if the facts before me change but in the 3 years i've been fermenting sour beer using the same gear as my clean beer this has not happened even once. i would not consider myself lucky at this point, too many batches have been fermented for me to consider that i've merely been lucky.

Yes, I'd definitely say there are varying degrees of scratch danger. The more you can feel a scratch, the deeper it is - true for almost anything, in fact, if you ever want to know if a scratch in your car's finish will buff out, see if you can feel it. If you can see it but not feel it, it will buff out. If you can feel it, it's below the clear coat and requires painting. If you feel a scratch in the bucket, it's more of a haven for bacteria than a scratch you can't really feel - although I suspect that technically, there is probably a point at which a larger scratch might actually provide a better pathway for the sanitizer and cleaning solution.

If I'm not mistaken, it was Jon Herskovitz from 5 star chemicals himself that talked about scratches on a show of brewstrong. I believe, can't be certain. Anyway, the discussion was about how without a certain level of emulsification, that starsan and PBW cannot always work into every crevice and scratch and therefore, there is a risk. Another concern I might have, and I do not know the answer, but are food grade brewing buckets food grade throughout? Or might they be coated? Food grade requires no dyes and our buckets all have brand logos etc... which makes me think potentially the whole thing isn't food grade. I might worry a deep enough scratch may expose this.

Bottom line for me is, bacteria definitely hides in crevices. This is a fact. So, we are certainly providing a better place for bacteria to be when using a scratched bucket. Now, as to the argument of whether or not sanitizer can effectively seek and destroy every time in the cracks, that's a different argument. Maybe yes, maybe no. My point is, for $14, why take a chance? personally, I'd rather not risk $40 and 6 hours of my time to experiment when I can spend $14 and get some piece of mind.

 

[worthogg]

I often wonder about the buckets being stacked inside each other on the shelves of the brew stores. Do we really think that those buckets were placed ever so gently one inside the other so as not to scratch the delicate interior? Probably not. Chances are most o the buckets are already a little scratched when we buy them, no?