Scotch ale fermentation suggestions

[livelyjay]

I've been brewing for just over a year now with around 140 gallons under my belt and actually find it strange I didn't have an account on this site yet until today. I've been on here before, but I guess I always found my questions answered just by searching and didn't need to post. Any ways ...

Rohrbach scotch ale is one of my favorite beers but I've been having problems replicating it. I've got a recipe I want to try out, so I came here to ask suggestions on scotch ale fermenting. Another thread on this forum from back in 2009 recommended fermenting at a lower temperature. I always ferment in the range of 68-72 degrees. My technique is to chill the wort until it's in the 75-80 range, pitch the yeast, and just let it ride it out in my basement (winter = 70 degrees dead on, summer a little cooler so I use a brew-belt). The White Labs Edinburgh always appear to have trouble when the temperatures drop below this. I used Wyeast Scottish once with good results as well as Nottingham dry yeast.

So my question is, what technique should I be using to ferment my next batch of Scotch Ale?

 

[ColoHox]

Based on the temperatures you mentioned, I would hazard that you are still fermenting too warm.

True that Edinburgh does not do well below 62F, but if you are fermenting in your basement and the ambient is 70F, the temperature in your fermenter can be 5-10F higher. A stick on thermometer is not the most accurate measure.

A simple swamp cooler can help you keep temps lower, if you don't have the $$ or equip for a temp controller.

 

[solbes]

Yep, sounds too warm for a scotch ale for me. I would shoot for low to mid 60's for the first couple of days. I made huge quality gains when I got the temperature thing down:

- Usually have yeast starter in the fridge, warm it up to say 50 or so just prior to the pitch
- Chill wort down to 1-2 degrees below lowest working range of yeast
- Pitch yeast and allow to rise 2-3 degrees to start reproducing on the cold end.
- After the first 18 hours or so, let it rise another 2 degrees and hold with temp controller.

Yeast likes going from cold to warm, but not the other way around. Nice quick, healthy ferment. And the first 18-24 hours are the most critical to control temps, especially if you want to minimize esters with styles like Scotch ales.

Oh and Welcome!!

 

[livelyjay]

That's completely contrary to what I've been doing. White Labs labels say to chill the wort and pitch at 75 degrees and keep it there until it starts. I have no temperature control other than the ambient in my basement. In winter the temp is around 70 if I crack the vent, lower if I close the vent. In the summer the temperature is mid to high 60s, so I've been using a brew belt.

Edinburgh yeast online says 65-70. So you're saying I should following this?
1) Bring starter solution up to 50 degrees (do this while making/boiling wort)
2) Chill wort down below 65 degrees
3) Pitch yeast into starter and let it rise a few degrees (do this while chilling)
4) Pitch starter + yeast into wort
5) Keep ambient temp as close to 65 as possible

Does this hold true for all beer styles, or just scotch ale?

 

[Oginme]

Especially for a big beer like a scotch ale, I start my fermentation temperature low. I typically use the WY1728, which is roughly equivalent to the WL028. I start by cooling both the wort and starter down to between 60F and 62F to pitch. I allow it to rise gently over the course of about 2 weeks up to 68F to 70F. The fermentation comes out much cleaner with less stress products from the yeast. Too high a temperatures (mid to upper 70's) will produce fusel alcohols.

 

[solbes]

Both Whitelabs and Wyeast recommend warmer pitching temps because they state the vial/smack pack can be direct pitched (without making a starter). For most beers above 1.038-1.040 Gravity, this results in underpitching in yeast cell count, and is generally not recommended by home brewers.

As you evolve into making better beer, the two most important things you can do are to control fermentation temps and to pitch the correct quantity of yeast. You can use MrMalty calculator to get an idea on correct yeast pitching rates. I generally do not pitch quite that much, but its a good guide.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

You are getting esters beyond what you are trying to clone because the yeast is going through a fair amount of reproduction (from direct pitching 1 vial), and from warmer than desired pitching and fermentation temperatures (a lot of the esters are formed during the first 48 hours of fermentation).

If you are making a yeast starter (and I would recommend this for most liquid yeast fermented beers), it needs to be started a number of days prior to your main batch. You let it ferment out, and place it in the fridge for 48 hours so that the yeast drops out of solution. You then pour off the beer on top into the drain and pitch only a little of the starter beer + all of the yeast trub.

So #1 and 2 are correct. #3 is referring to your fermented/decanted yeast starter from the above paragraph. Let your wort + yeast rise 2-3 degrees to the bottom of the yeast working temp range. Then control most of the fermentation 2 degrees warmer than that after 18 hours.

So you want to ferment in ambient air that is preferably low to mid 60's. The beer will be 3-5 degrees warmer than ambient in the first 2-3 days of fermentation and then will start to cool towards ambient. Put that brew belt away and use it for wine. Cheers!

 

[ColoHox]

That's completely contrary to what I've been doing. White Labs labels say to chill the wort and pitch at 75 degrees and keep it there until it starts. I have no temperature control other than the ambient in my basement. In winter the temp is around 70 if I crack the vent, lower if I close the vent. In the summer the temperature is mid to high 60s, so I've been using a brew belt.

Edinburgh yeast online says 65-70. So you're saying I should following this?
1) Bring starter solution up to 50 degrees (do this while making/boiling wort)
2) Chill wort down below 65 degrees
3) Pitch yeast into starter and let it rise a few degrees (do this while chilling)
4) Pitch starter + yeast into wort
5) Keep ambient temp as close to 65 as possible

Does this hold true for all beer styles, or just scotch ale?

If I am reading you correctly, there are some other issues here. A starter is designed to increase your cell count before brewing, a process which usually takes 24-48 hours depending on the size. You have to give the yeast a chance to grow in your starter before you pitch it. So basically, using just step 2 and 4 that you listed, after letting the starter grow.
Then, you need to keep your BEER temperature as close to 65 as you can, which is different than your room AMBIENT temperature. Like I mentioned, the actual temperature in your fermenter can be 5-10 degrees warmer than your ambient temperature, so you will probably have to cool your fermenting beer. Fermentation generates a lot of heat.

 

[user 141939]

I made a fantastic porter using the wyeast scottish pitched and fermented 62-64. I raised slowly the temp up towards 70 after the first week.

I use a swamp cooler, usually in conjunction with aquarium heater since my basement is 52 in the winter. I find that the temp of the water and the temp of the beer are practically the same even during peak fermentation. I think the water has a buffering effect on the temp of the beer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[livelyjay]

solbes, just so I understand what you're saying I'm going to rehash, because I've never worked with starters before.

I'm pitching the liquid yeast directly into my wort. The problem with this is there isn't enough yeast for the amount of sugars in the wort, thus I'm underpitching. This causes the yeast to reproduce more than is desired, resulting in added esters. I need to use the calculator you provided to get the correct amount of yeast to pitch. I then create my starter according to a how-to which I'll be looking up on this site. That about cover it?

 

[solbes]

Yep, that's pretty much it. Cheers!

 

[livelyjay]

The how-to on this forum is a little generic: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-make-yeast-starter-pictorial-76101/
It's stating 2 cups : 0.5 cups DME ratio. Do I keep that ratio? The calculator at MrMalty shows for 1.06 OG, with intermittent shaking, that I need 1.25 liters of starter. That would equal 5.28 cups of water and 1.32 cups DME. Is this calculation correct or am I missing something?

 

[solbes]

About right. I usually shoot for 1.035-1.040 OG for yeast starters. I would measure the gravity of your first starter and note any ajustments for future batches. You won't need to ever check it again.

The only thing I would change is to round up to 6 cups of water to account for boil off during the 15-20 minutes. Add a little yeast nutrient or energizer also if you have it.

 

[livelyjay]

About right. I usually shoot for 1.035-1.040 OG for yeast starters. I would measure the gravity of your first starter and note any ajustments for future batches. You won't need to ever check it again.

The only thing I would change is to round up to 6 cups of water to account for boil off during the 15-20 minutes. Add a little yeast nutrient or energizer also if you have it.

So the OG for that calculator is for the starter? I thought the OG was for the main batch of beer so you could get the correct amount of yeast in the starter? So for example if I had a really big beer, say 1.1 OG, I'd need a bigger starter because I don't want to underpitch.

 

[solbes]

You are right, the mr malty is for your batch of beer, not the starter. I was just stating the gravity target for my yeast starters. You want healthy viable yeast, so a low abv yeast starter that still promotes more yeast cells is best.

 

[livelyjay]

So my first starter is in the bag. I ended up with a little over 4 cups and the OG was 1.05. A little higher than what you suggested, but I'm using LME because I buy it in bulk so it was a little harder to gauge how much to use. I started with 2/3 of a cup, so next time I'll use just a bit more than 1/2 a cup.

I'm also making a vanilla porter for this batch and using White Labs Dry English yeast, which has the same temperature range as the Edinburgh. The temperature of the starter is right around 65 and I'm going to leave it in the basement and crack the vent so it stays cool.

 

[Fermented_minds]

For scotch ales, I use Wyeast 1728 and ferment at 55 F. The character of the beer is great, as is the attenuation. If you can handle getting it down to 55 F, give it a go. I've had great results.