Scorching in the boil - help!

[hoey222]

I have an eBIAB setup with a 5500 watt ULWD element from eBrewsupply. I have a Love Control 16c PID. I set my boil to 212.

I tried to make an imperial IPA - but i ended up scorching the batch. I was careful during the mash. I'm pretty sure i didn't scorch there. I stirred often. I was making a SMASH galaxy ipa.

During the boil about halfway through a 90 minute boil i notice what looked like smoke coming out of the kettle - it was definitely more than just steam. After emptying the kettle, I can smell "burnt" in the wort. Even tasting it, I could taste burnt grease.

What's going on? Is it the fact that i'm making something with a gravity over 1.065? I've had this issue before with higher gravity beers. What can i do? The wort is at a rolling boil, there should be enough movement in there to keep anything from settling on the element.

gonna try to RDWHAHB...

 

[augiedoggy]

I have an eBIAB setup with a 5500 watt ULWD element from eBrewsupply. I have a Love Control 16c PID. I set my boil to 212.

I tried to make an imperial IPA - but i ended up scorching the batch. I was careful during the mash. I'm pretty sure i didn't scorch there. I stirred often. I was making a SMASH galaxy ipa.

During the boil about halfway through a 90 minute boil i notice what looked like smoke coming out of the kettle - it was definitely more than just steam. After emptying the kettle, I can smell "burnt" in the wort. Even tasting it, I could taste burnt grease.

What's going on? Is it the fact that i'm making something with a gravity over 1.065? I've had this issue before with higher gravity beers. What can i do? The wort is at a rolling boil, there should be enough movement in there to keep anything from settling on the element.

gonna try to RDWHAHB...

A few things to help figure out or rule out whats going on...

You said you dont think it scorched during the mash? Does this mean you recirculate with pump and regulate the heat with the 5500w element during this process? If so there have been more than a few complaints of people scorching the wort with this setup it air pockets develop or the wort simply travels too slowly around the element letting proteins settle on top of it which later burn to the element. every time this comes up a few people chime in to say they do the same with no issues but I believe small differences in the system, process and beer recipes can allow this to happen more easily with this configuration because this is the 6th tread or so with this configuration and complaint Ive read...

Also you mentioned 5500w element .. Which type a LWD straight one or ULWD ripple? The straight ones are much more likely to cause scorching with a hotter surface temp (this is one reason I believe brew boss went from the straight to the ripples to help with issues mentioned above) the straight elements are not ideal for this use at all... especially if your direct heating a mash.

3rd possibility I can think of is if your were making an ipa and you dont use bags or hop spiders than you have a lot of hop proteins floating in the wort as well as protiens from removing the bag.... If at any point you temporarily turned the element off long enough for these proteins to settle on the element and didnt stir well immediately prior to turning the element back on theres a very good chance whatever settled on the element will scorch to it.

Good luck in figuring it out.

 

[TexasWine]

I have a Love Control 16c PID. I set my boil to 212.

I'm not familiar with this controller, but I would assume there's some sort of manual mode you can use to adjust the element power instead of using temperature set point.

Using the temp set point could be source of the issue if the controller is turning the heating element on/off in big swings, resulting in kind of a pulsating boil. Element turns on, it boils, element turns off, everything settles, element turns back on and it scorches what settles on it.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not familiar with this controller, but I would assume there's some sort of manual mode you can use to adjust the element power instead of using temperature set point.

Using the temp set point could be source of the issue if the controller is turning the heating element on/off in big swings, resulting in kind of a pulsating boil. Element turns on, it boils, element turns off, everything settles, element turns back on and it scorches what settles on it.

Yes very true and good point...
However thats something I would address with better dough in practices so the temp isnt so far off and lower watt density, lower power element or better flow that wont scorch instead of manually adjusting the temps to try to regulate them and bypassing the pid functions. Now days with 5500w or 4500w stainless ripple elements being as low as $6 on alibaba and $27 on ebay I think the argument to better match the equipment for function rather than limit the function of said equipment to get through is strong.

I wouldnt trust any one setting in manual mode to maintain a specific mash temp. and mash temps should be no where near enough to cause pulsating boils or that long of a less unless the flow is really low under there... it would require a lot of constant value changes..

it would help if we knew what type of system were talking about here... we dont even know if the OP is recirculating which could be the issue...

 

[TexasWine]

I'm not familiar with this controller, but I would assume there's some sort of manual mode you can use to adjust the element power instead of using temperature set point.

Using the temp set point could be source of the issue if the controller is turning the heating element on/off in big swings, resulting in kind of a pulsating boil. Element turns on, it boils, element turns off, everything settles, element turns back on and it scorches what settles on it.

Yes very true and good point...
However thats something I would address with better dough in practices so the temp isnt so far off and lower watt density, lower power element or better flow that wont scorch instead of manually adjusting the temps to try to regulate them and bypassing the pid functions. Now days with 5500w stainless ripple elements being as low as $6 on alibaba and $27 on ebay I think the argument to better match the equipment for function rather than limit the function of said equipment to get through is strong.

Just to clarify, I'm saying that the use of the temp set point to control the boil isn't necessarily optimal or the correct approach. But for the mash one should totally use the PID functions for control.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just to clarify, I'm saying that the use of the temp set point to control the boil isn't necessarily optimal or the correct approach. But for the mash one should totally use the PID functions for control.

thanks for that... I'm not doing a good job of reading posts correctly today... I agree.. manual mode all the way for boil control.

 

[hoey222]

it would help if we knew what type of system were talking about here... we dont even know if the OP is recirculating which could be the issue...

I'm not recirculating. I'm stirring every 10-15 minutes.

Here's where I think I need to make adjustments. I got a hop spider for the excessive hops I was using in this batch. I'm also going to start recirculating by draining off a couple quarts every 10-15 and pour back in to my bag. I'm also going to explore manual mode for my boil. My PID does a good job of holding temp but it think the full power at boil may be too much for the higher gravity recipes.

Thanks for the help all!

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not recirculating. I'm stirring every 10-15 minutes.


Thanks for the help all!

Thats likely your problem. every 10 15 minutes is enough to get localized boiling under the grainbed... you can buy a pump like this and resolve this issue. http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC24V-Solar...609335?hash=item33d26bc177:g:YZEAAOSw3v5YsCQ3
they are only $18 isf you have a powersupply laying around. just one work around there are many options here.

 

[ZmannR2]

Gotta recirculate during the mash if that element has any power to it at all. That definitely is your problem.

 

[applescrap]

Fwiw I have to turn my 5500 w element to 60 percent power for a very vigorous boil. At 100% it seems plausible that could scorch something, no?

 

[BrunDog]

Don't use PID (automatic) mode for boil. If the setpoint can't be reached because of your location's (altitude) boil temp, it will keep increasing power over time, equating to 100% if it's not throttled.

 

[hoey222]

OK, so found a small pump setup for $20 on amazon....if it does the job I can invest in something more substantial.

I am east coast, so altitude isn't an issue for me. Manual for boil is definitely on my list.

Thanks!

 

[doug293cz]

OK, so found a small pump setup for $20 on amazon....if it does the job I can invest in something more substantial.

I am east coast, so altitude isn't an issue for me. Manual for boil is definitely on my list.

Thanks!

I you are currently using a PID without manual mode, and intend to replace it, you should really switch to an Auber EZBoil. They do the same job as PID controllers, but don't use a PID algorithm. EZBoils control temperature better during mash, with simpler (often no) tuning, and use a rotary knob for boil power control. According to multiple reviews by HBT'ers, they are much preferred to PID's.

Brew on

 

[ZmannR2]

OK, so found a small pump setup for $20 on amazon....if it does the job I can invest in something more substantial.

I am east coast, so altitude isn't an issue for me. Manual for boil is definitely on my list.

Thanks!

Man I HIGHLY recommend investing in a proper chugger/March/Blichmann/or even the new DC pump I've been seeing on sites like brewhardware for like $80.....it's one of the most useful tools in your brewery. You can also use it for whirlpooling, immersion chiller recirculation, pushing cleaning solution through lines, and racking to fermenter. It's a tough pill to swallow but worth it

 

[ZmannR2]

Or.....insulate the heck out of your mash during that hour and never turn your element on

I don't think the scorching is coming during your boil.

Your bag isn't sitting on the element right?