scorched RIMS element

[Jako]

well not sure how it happened. but it did and it was sooooo bad. took me days of off and on cleaning.

i used a stainless wool pad to clean it. should i have any reason to fear of a malfunction? i am thinking of going HIRMS of just do decoction mashes from now on. days and money wasted on something i had 0 control over is not my thing.

 

[day_trippr]

There is the possibility the overheating caused a breach in the element that would result in a GFI trip when immersed. There was a post in the last week where this happened. You might want to give the element a test drive with enough water to cover before committing to a brew day...

 

[Jako]

thanks for the heads up i will give it a test run.

 

[Jako]

Well it happened again. I even went back and re read the instructions to make sure I was doing it correctly......

 

[doug293cz]

Well it happened again. I even went back and re read the instructions to make sure I was doing it correctly......

Can you post some pics of your RIMS tube (in working position) that show the connections on the entry and exit ends. Also, what is your element power, and how are you controlling the element? Finally, where is the temp probe that provides feedback to the controller?

Brew on

 

[mabrungard]

Temp probe location is critical. It has to be no more than a few inches downstream of the element or the element can be overpowered and scorched.

Regarding element cleaning, I recommend soaking in caustic to help loosen and dissolve the burnt stuff.

 

[Jako]

Can you post some pics of your RIMS tube (in working position) that show the connections on the entry and exit ends. Also, what is your element power, and how are you controlling the element? Finally, where is the temp probe that provides feedback to the controller?

Brew on

i will take some pictures once i get home, i own the brew hardware kit fitted with cam locks. i will look in my phone to see if i have a picture of it mounted.

RIMS Package with TC heater and PID controller, prewired and ready to use

before i brewed last night i inspected the element and made sure it wasn't touching the edge. but it was close. I run in a horizontal position with the exit end sloped slightly up to avoid any air pockets. I was so so so careful this time around as it took me a few days off and on to clean the element. I also made sure multiple times that the temp probe was correctly installed with the probe fully inserted. This brew day i made sure i had a very good wort flow x2 or more of what i would normally run. I also did a vorlouf to ensure no lose or small particulate was pulled into the RIMS tube.

little more information that might help. this is the 3rd time this happened the first time it wasn't that bad. the second time was very very very bad. i cleaned the element until it had 0 trace of scorching, i used a steel wool pad lightly to remove all hard to reach and clean residue.

100% out of ideas now. planning on going to a 3 vessel HERMS build i think or just do decoction mash steps or with a insulated mash tun. heck i have even thought of using my counterflow chiller as a HERMS but i would need another pump at that point.

 

[day_trippr]

Is this the same element as in post #1 - or a replacement?

Cheers!

 

[Jako]

Is this the same element as in post #1 - or a replacement?

Cheers!

Tts the original one.

 

[Jako]

In the picture showing the RIMS i had quickly put it on the table so I could move it for tile repairs. But the slope is reversed normally. Also just noticed the RIMS is not set up correctly in image of the system running. This was an early test once I set it all up. I think I was cleaning vessles

 

[BrunDog]

RIMS tubes must be oriented vertically. This way, during a no-flow situation, the heated liquid still rises and is sensed by the temp probe right above it, thereby ensuring the controller de-powers the element. You should never get scorching in this configuration.

Horizontal configs tend to get more local heating... the liquid running along the bottom of the element doesn't get heated nearly at all.

 

[Jako]

RIMS tubes must be oriented vertically. This way, during a no-flow situation, the heated liquid still rises and is sensed by the temp probe right above it, thereby ensuring the controller de-powers the element. You should never get scorching in this configuration.

Horizontal configs tend to get more local heating... the liquid running along the bottom of the element doesn't get heated nearly at all.

i find it weird i didn't have issues but now it happens 3 brews in a row. i am willing to try anything but the cost to have it fail again is adding up fast.

 

[doug293cz]

Looks like you have the temp probe located at the input port of the RIMS tube. This is a recipe for disaster (overheating the wort in the tube.) The temp probe must be at the exit end, close to the tip of the element. You need to flip the tube end-for-end.

Brew on

 

[Jako]

Looks like you have the temp probe located at the input port of the RIMS tube. This is a recipe for disaster (overheating the wort in the tube.) The temp probe must be at the exit end, close to the tip of the element. You need to flip the tube end-for-end.

Brew on

its normally not set up this way. i had just set things up and was doing a quick run down.

let me see if i can find a picture that's not a year old

 

[Jako]

looks like i ran it in both directions since i have owned it. could be what caused the other to scorches but this last brew day i can say without a doubt i had it correct. could the finish on the element be the issue now?

 

[BrunDog]

This RIMs tube looks short to me - but I see Bobby has both 12” and 18” length versions. Longer would be better to reduce heat density at the element, but should be able to have success with this one.

 

[BarryBrews]

I have the same general brew set up. The RIMS tube from Brewhardware.com is absolutely awesome. I have interlocked my system set up so that my RIMS element can't fire without the pump being tuned on. Handy for all those times I've turned off the pump and momentarily forgotten the RIMS! I also use SCR voltage regulators for an even more gentle heating. Much simpler to use than PID's.

I don't know if you use your RIMS and pump to aid in heating your strike water or if it is also used to help bring your wort to boil, but in my system the RIMS and Pump stay connected throughout each step of the brew day. The CFC is added inline the last 15 minutes of the boil. Think of the "RIMS/Pump/CFC system" as having an input and an output which are moved between the different kettle ports for the different steps of your brew day. You own it so might as well use it to the fullest.

Another benefit of using the RIMS/Pump continuously (not the first 75 minutes of the boil of course) is the temperature probes can be mounted on the inlet and outlet of the RIMS tube which negates the need for probes on the kettles! Picture attached for clarity, silicone tubes not shown. Also note the flow meter which opens a whole slew of additional control and checks.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Seems like its got to be the power going to the heating element. My system has a 12 inch tube, lays horizontal with the temp prob about 24 inch away on the input side, pump on output side and do not have any scorching issues. I also have the ability to apply my propane burner to the mash tun (keggle) if my temp is to low until the tube can self regulate.

 

[TLaffey]

When I first installed a RIMS tube, I also installed it horizontally. That lasted for one brew. It's now as shown in the photo: vertical, inlet at bottom, outlet and temp probe at top. Outlet goes directly to my MT. I'm using a 5500W/240V element powered at 120V, so 1375W with lower watt density.

 

[Jako]

i appreciate the great advise and thoughts on this one.

i have had electrical issues with this house. i wonder if its causing the PDI system to struggle with voltages. lights flicker like crazy in the house.

I have the same general brew set up. The RIMS tube from Brewhardware.com is absolutely awesome. I have interlocked my system set up so that my RIMS element can't fire without the pump being tuned on. Handy for all those times I've turned off the pump and momentarily forgotten the RIMS! I also use SCR voltage regulators for an even more gentle heating. Much simpler to use than PID's.

I don't know if you use your RIMS and pump to aid in heating your strike water or if it is also used to help bring your wort to boil, but in my system the RIMS and Pump stay connected throughout each step of the brew day. The CFC is added inline the last 15 minutes of the boil. Think of the "RIMS/Pump/CFC system" as having an input and an output which are moved between the different kettle ports for the different steps of your brew day. You own it so might as well use it to the fullest.

Another benefit of using the RIMS/Pump continuously (not the first 75 minutes of the boil of course) is the temperature probes can be mounted on the inlet and outlet of the RIMS tube which negates the need for probes on the kettles! Picture attached for clarity, silicone tubes no shown. Also note the flow meter which opens a whole slew of additional control and checks.

View attachment 711272

very cool set up i really like how you set up the pump and keep everything in line. this is something i might try.

i also plan to change the RIMS tube to a vertical position just to give myself just to avoid any potential issues.

on a side note i don't think its a defective product and the quality is amazing.

 

[mbronkalla]

With a high current load and lights flickering, I would suspect the wiring at the outlets and other fixtures in the line back to the breaker panel. One of the great dis-services done to homeowners was the "push-in" wiring connections on outlets and switches instead of good old fashioned screw connections. The push in connections have very little contact area and as a result, high resistance under load. Shut off the breakers for the affected circuites, pull the outlets and switches and see if the connections are just push in. If so cut each one off, strip back and place the wire under the screw next to it. When done re-apply the power and you should see a big improvement under load.

 

[Jako]

With a high current load and lights flickering, I would suspect the wiring at the outlets and other fixtures in the line back to the breaker panel. One of the great dis-services done to homeowners was the "push-in" wiring connections on outlets and switches instead of good old fashioned screw connections. The push in connections have very little contact area and as a result, high resistance under load. Shut off the breakers for the affected circuites, pull the outlets and switches and see if the connections are just push in. If so cut each one off, strip back and place the wire under the screw next to it. When done re-apply the power and you should see a big improvement under load.

thank you very much for the advice. i am about to get off and will check this out. i am almost excited to have a lead on fixing this issue.

 

[mabrungard]

By the way, I’ve been brewing with my RIMS element in an essentially horizontal orientation for about a decade and have never scorched the element. Orientation is not a factor in scorching, flow rate and improper element control are.

 

[day_trippr]

I imagine it's harder to assure a RIMs tube is free of captured air in the horizontal orientation...

Cheers!

 

[mabrungard]

Actually, there is no problem with moving bubbles out of a pipe as long as there is a positive (uphill) slope along the line. This is well known in pipeline engineering.

 

[day_trippr]

So, an actual "horizontal" mount is right out then, yes?
Are you accounting for any flanges on the up-stream side of the RIMs tube?

Cheers!

 

[BrunDog]

By the way, I’ve been brewing with my RIMS element in an essentially horizontal orientation for about a decade and have never scorched the element. Orientation is not a factor in scorching, flow rate and improper element control are.

While I’m a big fan, and agree with your comments about flow rate and element control, I’ll keep a firm position that orientation does indeed play a role in RIMs performance and scorching mitigation. The real key is not flow rate, it’s mixing. More turbulence is more betterer, though it’s hard to achieve with low flow rate, linear heating element, and no baffles. In some initial tests I did, I got markedly improved performance by wrapping the heating element in figure-8’s with some SS wire. Not really favorable if you have any grains flowing through, but the added wire creates both a lower density and higher turbulence.

Horizontal tubes allow cold wort to run along the bottom and hot wort to rise and ride along the top, only to mix at the outlet. This creates super heated areas on the element and sometimes local boiling. The vertical orientation reduces, though doesn’t eliminate this effect. Most importantly though, as I mentioned, even in a low or no flow state, the probe will sense the very hot liquid and therefore inhibit power, as an inherent fail-safe.

 

[mabrungard]

Horizontal tubes allow cold wort to run along the bottom and hot wort to rise and ride along the top, only to mix at the outlet.

You do have a point regarding low flow rate and the addition of stainless wire in the housing to take up space. But its virtually impossible that flow in the incoming tubing is going to be laminar enough to enable a stratified flow of colder and hotter wort. Flow in typical piping and hoses is quite turbulent and the constant mixing of flow within the pipe would prevent thermal stratification. If the RIMS housing is so large that the flow velocity is low enough to enable stratification, then other measures to enable a higher flow rate through the system is needed.

PS: if the wort is boiling on the element in a horizontal RIMS tube, that would also create a mixing action within the tube and eliminate stratified wort in the tube. Any way you look at this, there is no possibility that stratified wort would exist in a RIMS tube.