scorched or burnt RIS wort...wrong element or just boiled too long?

[odie]

Seriously burnt my RIS wort yesterday...decided to dump it and not waste all the ingredients lined up (costs way more than the grain lost). I suspect I need to change my process or element.

I have a homemade electric kettle. 1650 watt SS 120v element, foldback style (low density). I have never had any issues with standard gravity beers or even moderately high gravity. My standard process is 12 hour recirc mash (while at work) at 150 degrees. Pull the BIAB basket and sparge to about 1 gal over starting volume (for maximum mash/lauter efficiency). I do get insane extraction numbers. I typically boil down for about an hour until I reach my target 60 minute boil starting volume.

This has always produced nice clean wort for years. Normal OG beers.

The issue seems to be when I do a very high gravity beer, RIS or Quad...something with an OG 1.100 or more...

What happened is at mashout and sparge, I'm at 1.080 and having to boil down 4-5 hours to get to "starting volume" and gravity. Large grain bills are low efficiency so sparging a bit extra and boil down is what I've tried instead of going even higher on the grain bill. Trying not to waste as much grain.

The last couple times I did a high gravity beer this way, the result was a "smokey" flavor or something like that. Both beers were extra sparged and long boil down times. I did not particularly notice it during the brewing but the finished product was smokey or burnt or something...not undrinkable but not very pleasant either.

The first couple times I did this RIS recipe I did not extra sparge or extend my boil down times. Came out great. I can only assume the high gravity wort is scorching because of a combination of higher sugar content and longer time being heated.

Could, or should I change to a 5500 watt 240v element running at 120v? would this help prevent scorching during long high gravity boils? Or even a 4500w/240v element? I assume the longer the element, the more spread out the heating is for any given wattage, thus letting the element run a bit cooler along the length, but still plenty to boil.

Is scorching a result of higher sugar content? Longer total heating time (regardless of sugar levels)? Or is the element just too hot?

I'm okay with a "cooler" element and just taking way longer to boil down if that will eliminate scorching high OG beers.

Any element will heat the wort...it's just a matter of how fast. Even a mild one will eventually get it to boil. Is low and slow the way to go with high OG/sugar wort?

 

[mac_1103]

The first couple times I did this RIS recipe I did not extra sparge or extend my boil down times. Came out great. I can only assume the high gravity wort is scorching because of a combination of higher sugar content and longer time being heated.

Does this mean you used more grain to get to the same OG without the extra sparge and extended boil?

 

[Broken Crow]

Since your element is on the lower side of wattage it will run closer to full-power depending on the volume....not ususally a problem depending on circulation around it; Do you reciculate? I suspect I go a bit overboard on recirculation, but I'm brewing in a keggle in which the element has too much dead-space underneath and temp-stratification is a big deal. In most of the posts I've read on scorched wort, lack of circulation around the element has been the main culprit, followed my too physically small (less surface area) and element running too hot....the more sugar-content, the more it needs to circulate.

 

[odie]

Does this mean you used more grain to get to the same OG without the extra sparge and extended boil?

yep. just sucks. I hate leaving good sugars in the mash.

I sometimes did a second running to make a basic stout. It sucks tossing out wet grain that is still dripping solid gravity numbers. But would rather just cut the grain and get more sugars into the kettle.

 

[odie]

Since your element is on the lower side of wattage it will run closer to full-power depending on the volume....not ususally a problem depending on circulation around it; Do you reciculate? I suspect I go a bit overboard on recirculation, but I'm brewing in a keggle in which the element has too much dead-space underneath and temp-stratification is a big deal. In most of the posts I've read on scorched wort, lack of circulation around the element has been the main culprit, followed my too physically small (less surface area) and element running too hot....the more sugar-content, the more it needs to circulate.

constant recirc. When I dumped everything, I found the element was seriously crusted...like crunchy crusted. That was before anything but grain. Not DME, no lactose, no cacao, no hops, etc...

element runs full power, it's on or off depending on the inkbird controller to maintain temp. It's not really lower wattage. It's 120v 1650 so it's pulling almost 14 amps.

If I go with a 5500/240 on a 120 circuit it will drop to under 12 amps. A 4500/240 on 120v will pull about 9 amps.

I'm thinking like cooking something on the stove...low or med heat will get it cooked...but not burnt.

I mean, there are guys doing "no boil"...just getting it plenty hot...but then that will greatly extend my "boil off" time.

 

[mac_1103]

yep. just sucks. I hate leaving good sugars in the mash.

Yeah but I'm just trying to wrap my head around what's going on. Scorching when you start with more volume and lower pre-boil gravity but not when you start with less volume and higher pre-boil gravity? Maybe you need to listen to the crow and recirculate while heating to boil?

edit - we crossed in the mail; please ignore the last sentence.

 

[pers]

I had a very similar experience with a homemade electric kettle, 2 1500W elements though, and a RIS. The elements got extremely burnt, black and crusty to the point I just replaced them and the beer turned out so burnt it was undrinkable.

While it's never happened again, mainly because I don't brew RIS much, I believe what happened was the recirc got messed up by the large amount of grain. Think this caused the elements to basically dry fire as not enough liquid was draining down quick enough during the mash.

Might be worth trying not to recirc during the mash and see if that solves the issue.

 

[odie]

Scorching happened during the boil off.

It's mashed all night long at 150'. Mash out in the morning and sparged all smelled good. Was about 2.5 gal over target start volume and still getting 1.060 out of the mash. Boil off rate is 0.5 gal/hour. Boiled off for 2 hours, smells just fine.

left for a while, got home (now 4 hrs boil off) and I am at starting volume for the recipe and burnt smell. I could smell it in the driveway and kettle is out back. I pulled a sample, chilled it, drank it..."smoked or burnt" flavor...

 

[odie]

Think this caused the elements to basically dry fire as not enough liquid was draining down quick enough during the mash.

Might be worth trying not to recirc during the mash and see if that solves the issue.

It's not a mash problem. It's post mash during the boil.

either there is a practical time limit wort can be boiled before it "burns"

or, it's the higher sugar content/concentration that results in the wort getting burnt faster? IDK.

I've never "boiled off" a standard beer more than an hour to reach starting volume.

There was a ton of burnt covering the element. Very charred. It flaked off pretty easy but the element is very discolored now after cleaning.

 

[odie]

I suppose just re-formulate the recipe for standard OG and augment with DME at F/O to reach target?

Or just accept that I will/should just mash big on this recipe and do a second running stout?

 

[pers]

Honestly its been a couple years since its happened so don't exactly remember the how/when during process it occurred. Just at some point I remember a burning smell thinking something was on fire but everything was fine and was able to finish up.

But your description of the element is exactly as mine were. Still have them and still discolored, no amount of barkeepers friend was able to fix. They also still have a burnt smell.

I always get nervous now when doing 90-120 minute boils but never had another issue, that's why I came up with the mash dry fire theory. But I have also never gone over 1.090 since so maybe you're on the right track about time and sugar content.

 

[passedpawn]

If you have the foldback style element, make sure to bend the foldback as open as possible so that you don't get hops stuck in there.

If this isn't a ULWD (ultra-low), perhaps consider changing to that.

 

[odie]

If you have the foldback style element, make sure to bend the foldback as open as possible so that you don't get hops stuck in there.

If this isn't a ULWD (ultra-low), perhaps consider changing to that.

pretty sure it's ULWD. I recall searching for that when I sourced it. Can't bend it open cause it goes in/out the hole every time for cleaning.

I use pellet hops, drop them down the side but they don't seem to stick too much. They should break up immediately anyway?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I suppose just re-formulate the recipe for standard OG and augment with DME at F/O to reach target?

That's definitely the easy way to do it (and what I do for any beer that I want to have a high gravity).

 

[doug293cz]

I think the problem is due to a combination of the high sugar content of the wort, and the long boil time. The thicker wort has slightly worse heat transport properties than thinner wort, so the heat from the element is not transferred into the bulk wort as fast, resulting in a hotter element surface (than with normal gravity worts.) Due to the hotter surface, you get more caramelization of sugar on the element surface, and this continues to build up over time. The thicker the layer of caramelized sugar on the element, the slower the heat is transferred from the element to the wort, and hotter the surface of the element gets. This continues to get worse at an ever faster rate as you boil, and at some point with a long boil, the element surface gets hot enough to scorch the sugar built up on the element.

I agree with others that the simplest fix is to boil lower gravity wort for shorter times, and make up the gravity points with DME.

Brew on

 

[Agent]

Do you have a spare vessel that can hold your wort pre-boil?

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you pulled that element post mash, you'll find it covered in goo. And once you have to rip through a (especially an extended) boil, that goo chars on the element and leads to your off flavors.

My take is that the element is running full tilt early in the mash to hit temperature and the soluble starches that haven't been converted stick. And there's extra starch in those big grain bills and if you undershoot the strike temperature, the element runs extra long to catch up. It takes the double whammy to produce an off effect.

I just did a 3hr boil on a 1.105 OG barleywine yesterday without issues - but I do not recirc my mash at all.

 

[odie]

round 2 complete. same grain bill, same mash profile. probably a half to one gallon less on the mash water so I could sparge a bit more.

Pulled the basket and sparged to 0.5 gal over target and quit. set grain bag aside for a second run later. Felt pretty good about the gravity (I just have kinda a target area) and looks like OG is around 1.100 before the maple syrup later on.

I tried a second run...after about 2 gallons were collected it was only 1.030 which is not going to make much of a stout.

What I'm guessing is that at the end of my initial sparge when I already made target volume plus...the mash was still dripping 1.060 but probably was just the tail end of the sugar. The mash is relatively homogenous and once the sugar drains, the sparge water pushes out any remaining sugar down. I figure that it will flow solid gravity until the sparge water reached the bottom of the mash and then the numbers drop off fast. I just kept sparging a couple extra gallons cause I "thought" there was still good sugar in the mash. Instead it was rapidly diminishing returns after the initial sparge water exists the bottom of the mash.

looking at my past notes...I did a 9 hours sparge/boil once (I think oatmeal slowed it way down). My notes say "burnt smell?" And the beer did have a smokey or burnt taste to it. one I didn't care for. But the efficiency numbers and OG was off the charts. Like 1.122

 

[odie]

I think the problem is due to a combination of the high sugar content of the wort, and the long boil time.

Exactly what I think too.

 

[odie]

I agree with others that the simplest fix is to boil lower gravity wort for shorter times, and make up the gravity points with DME.

What I think really happened is as I was approaching my target volumes during sparge, the bulk of the wort had drained down into the kettle and the grain bed was now mostly sparge water. Any the residual sugar was at the bottom of the grain bed by that point. I took a reading as was getting solid gravity numbers so I sparged a couple more gallons not realizing all the grain above was probably clean by now. The gravity numbers probably dropped like a rock shortly after that reading so I was just getting scraps at that point.

 

[odie]

i'd bet dollars to donuts that if you pulled that element post mash, you'll find it covered in goo. And once you have to rip through a (especially an extended) boil, that goo chars on the element and leads to your off flavors.

element looks to be coated mostly with hops debris. I don't use a hop spider. maybe something to consider to make element cleaning easier?

 

[mac_1103]

I tried a second run...after about 2 gallons were collected it was only 1.030 which is not going to make much of a stout.

Starter wort. Waste not want not.

 

[odie]

oh...and the wort does not smell or taste burnt this time...very pleasant.

 

[Deadalus]

My first element in my BK was a lower end foldback style and it didnt' have a lot of space in one section. It got a little crusty right there and stayed that way but never affected the taste. It was a small rough spot. I would have to pull the element apart slightly to get a brush in there. It was a 5500 watt on 240V. I have a power adjuster, forget the technical name but it uses percentages for the BK. I do turn it on 100% usually for a short period after initial fill but generally 80% or less as I only need to boil off a gallon. My element sits a little higher off the wall as it is a keggle and I only run the element once the wort is about a 1/2"-1" above the element. My current element is a much nicer element from Brewhardware.com. Cleans up nice and easy. Something similar might help if you decided to change it out. The old one, which I don't know the make, was a little more porous. I don't think it is your wattage. I don't recirculate during the boil. In fact I don't stir much as the boil is generally fairly rigorous. I'm not suggesting you stop recirculating, as your process is different, just pointing out my own level of stirring.

 

[BBBF]

t's not a mash problem. It's post mash during the boil.

either there is a practical time limit wort can be boiled before it "burns"

I always get build up on my elements. I've had issues with long boils on wheat or rye beer. I can't remember if I've ever actually scorched on a back-to-back brew day. It may have just been a close call, but now I make sure to inspect and clean the elements after every batch, including back-to-backs.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's pretty important to stir the preboil wort really well before you do that ramp up to boil. Fines from the mash can settle on the element when things are very still and you basically bake it on before the aggressive boil will mix it. Once you establish a layer of crust, that just makes the long boil even worse due to trapped heat.