Sanitation smanitation... Let me hear your brew horrors!

[Mike-H]

So, we all know we must SANITIZE EVERYTHING.... When I first started I went CRAZY on sanitaztion because of its over emphasis in every book and on every forum. Now, with all the craziness over sanitation, someone SOMEWHERE must have had a bad batch! I want to hear about it, and what you did wrong or what you think was wrong.

 

[Mike-H]

Ok, I'll start... I brewed a batch of Muntons IPA Bitter using the "simple instructions", well this included boiling 2 gallons and putting it in with 3 gallons of cold water, then simply pouring in the LME and adding yeast... The beer was horrible. I think maybe I had several issues going on there. I cant really pinpoint it but my brewing procedures changed drastically after that!

 

[Walker]

One bad batch of beer in 9 years... blueberry wheat made around last Christmas time. I must have gotten something in there, because it was turning to vinegar in the secondary.

One bad batch of cider made at the same time, but it was not infection that killed the cider... it was not racking it off the yeast in time; Autolysis (sp?).

-walker

 

[Wheat King]

i get the feeling that all the emphasis on sanitation is more to scare people into being overly cautious. i KNOW sanitation is serious business, but since i have yet to hear horror stories (as the thread title suggests), i find it hard to believe that minor mistakes made or liberties taken will ruin a batch. for example, i hear a lot about veteran brewers starting siphons with their mouth etc. just a little personal touch that sounds scary to the sanitation-nazis but probably no big deal. am i insane?

 

[the_bird]

One bad batch of cider made at the same time, but it was not infection that killed the cider... it was not racking it off the yeast in time; Autolysis (sp?).

-walker

How long did you leave it on there, out of curiosity? I've got EdWort's apfelwein (sp?) fermenting right now, he just lets it sit in primary for four weeks before kegging but I'm thinking of racking to a secondary after it's done fermenting.

 

[Mike-H]

Here's my thinking on sanitation and the over emphasis on it. I think it all stems from large non-homescale breweries. These guys have a lot of time and money invested in a batch and if it goes bad, they lose that time and money. So, say if you sanitize nothing and you just wash & rinse and you arent too carefull you might lose say, 1 out of 10 brews, probably even less if you just made sure stuff was "clean". However, our "homebrews" for 5 gallons only cost 25 bucks. A majory brewer probably has hundreds invested, if not thousands in a single batch of beer. For him, he must sanitize because the cost of losing that brew is much greater.

Another thought too, is that large breweries have more grains laying around, I can picture lots of airborne particles flying around and lots of wild yeasts. I bet the wild yeast population in a brewery is much higher than that of the extract brewer in our houses.

Just my thoughts....

 

[Walker]

How long did you leave it on there, out of curiosity? I've got EdWort's apfelwein (sp?) fermenting right now, he just lets it sit in primary for four weeks before kegging but I'm thinking of racking to a secondary after it's done fermenting.

2 months in the primary.

 

[kornkob]

Here's the thing.

Most people in their daily lives think of things in a binary sense. Something is either 'dirty' or it is 'clean'. We're schooled this way as children, in fact--- mommy tells you it is 'ok' or 'icky'.

In fact it is more complicated than that. Something that is clean is not nessicarily sanitary. It's hard to get people to look beyond clean to sanitary and the difference is actually pretty subtle. Some thing that looks clean is clean-- clean is free of visible soil, including but not limited to food particles and dirt. However, sanitary means that it is free of harmful levles of micro-organisms and other contaminants. If it is sanitary then it is nessicarily clean (if you can see dirt on it then it is still not sanitary) but not all that is clean is sanitary (contaminants are not always visible).

It's stressed so much because it runs contrary to the way people think in their 'normal lives' where clean and sanitary are often misudnerstood and even used interchangably (with a dose of sterile frequently thrown in to boot).

 

[Vermicous]

I have had five bad batches, all within two months of each other.

Two batches were from mold, I brewed on the hottest day of the year, and in New England that means the spore count is at the highest as well. The mold was easy to clean out of the wort and it did not come back. But I had trouble siphoning one of the mold batches and it lead me to infection number three when I used my mouth to siphon.

This time it was lactobacillus. It was a 10 gallon batch split into two secondary fermenters. Since only one became infected, I have blamed the mouth siphoning on that one since my siphon did not break until I was racking the second batch.

Infections four and five were all from used equipment bought from a private sale. I let my worthless brew buddies sanitize the hoses. Apparantly, they did it like making a martini, just waved the bottle of starsan over the water. Both those infections were lactobacillus as well.

After throwing away all my hoses and soaking my fermenters in bleach, I have not had a reoccurance.

 

[debtman7]

You know, people have been brewing beer for thousands of years. People have known about micro organisms for what, a few hundred years? There's no way the old monks and early home brewers had any clue about sanitation, they didn't even know that yeast was involved. Lambics are even left open to the wild air for fermentation...

My take is that sanitation is a good idea, but really it's more of an insurance policy than anything. It's pretty quick and cheap to do, so you might as well, but if you mess up odds are that it will still turn out ok.

 

[Evan!]

Yeah, I'm damned careful, but not a jackboot...and I haven't had any spoiled batches. My Irish Red, after a couple months in bottle, is starting to taste a little sour/astringent, but I believe that's because of high temps during fermentation (it was summertime).

Still, my "sensei" who taught me how to brew has shared what he calls his "Miso Beer". It was supposed to be a Peach Wit, but it got infected somewhere along the line. Probably was the peaches. Now it smells and tastes oddly like miso. Not bad, just...odd. I think that adding fruit is the diceyest proposition regarding sanitation. Steam whatever it is, or boil. I added cranberries to my dubbel in secondary this past weekend, and I made sure to steam them, then add them to boiling water, puree them, and boil the mix for another 10 mins. You can never be too careful adding "stuff" to the secondary.

 

[kornkob]

You know, people have been brewing beer for thousands of years. People have known about micro organisms for what, a few hundred years? There's no way the old monks and early home brewers had any clue about sanitation, they didn't even know that yeast was involved. Lambics are even left open to the wild air for fermentation...

My take is that sanitation is a good idea, but really it's more of an insurance policy than anything. It's pretty quick and cheap to do, so you might as well, but if you mess up odds are that it will still turn out ok.

The old monks and early home brewers may not have realized tha the steps they were taking aided in sanitation but that doesn't mean they weren't doing it.

They undoubtably cleaned their tools and generally if you clean something enough you'll end up with something pretty durned close to sanitary (or even sanitary). Consider also that those early brewers very likely didn't enjoy the same level of success that we do. I can't remember the last time my father or I had a batch that was bad because of poor sanitation (scorched wort, sh!tty hops utilization, bad ingredients and the occasional failed seal have all turned beer but not sanitation).

On the other hand, the idea that everything has to be completely sanitary to make good beer is belied by my family's experience. We've had dogs drink out of the wort, kids stick toys or hands in it, sneezed in the primary, but dirty (not unsanitary but dirty) utensils in the beer--- all manner of unsanitary practices and yet not had a batch go south on us over it. Good sanitation increases the odds of the beer turning out.

 

[Bobby_M]

The folks that doubt the importance of sanitizing just likely haven't gotten bit yet. Perhaps a bad analogy, but the guy who doesn't wear his seatbelt and hadn't had an accident yet will tell you it's not an issue... until smash! and then he won't tell you anything.

The other issue is that I think there are different levels of spoilage. You might end up with an off flavor that you're not particularly sensitive to, but it's not the best it can be.

The other arguement used was based on how much money and effort can be lost (the large craft breweries etc) and that our home brews are only worth $25. Well, how about the time you spent researching the recipe, buying incredients, equipment prep, actual brewing, testing, racking, all the hope of a good batch? That's a lot of investment when you have precious little hobby time. A bad batch would royally p!ss me off and the amount of time it takes to soak stuff in iodaphor is miniscule.

 

[the_bird]

I still do a thorough cleaning of the kitchen before I start brewing, but that has more to do with the bargain I struck with SWMBO before taking up the hobby ("Homebrewing means that I'll have to have the kitchen spotless!"). I don't go to the extent of wiping down all the countertops with bleachwater anymore. I just try to be smart, I use Iodophor now because it's so easy, I let things soak in sanitizer until right before they are needed. I do a pretty good job of cleaning up before I start, both to minimize the risk of a stray infection and because it makes the process a lot easier when all the dishes are washed, dried, and put away. No problems so far.

 

[casebrew]

From the Bird: "I let things soak in sanitizer until right before they are needed."

I think it's probably this kind of thing that makes a big difference. Or the guy further up, with the mold infection from brewing on a high spore count day. These kind of things would account for all those infections from "I sanitised everything" batches. Didja, really? Did you sanitise all the mash stuff again before using it in the cooled wort? Mash ain't sanitised, not even 'clean'- the only thing I've had to toss out was a batch of grains, still in the papersack from the LHBS, when I got a moth hatch out of it. Mash is also loaded with wild stuff, like lacto-bacillus. It's one reason why we boil it.

Also, clean it all ASAP on brew day. don't let beasties get started.

 

[Monster Mash]

I've been brewing 12 years and I've never lost a batch to infection. I had a few bad batches from using bleach and not rinsing well enough and a few batches that just weren't right from bad procedures. I am very anal about sanitation especially now that Im brewing 25 gallon batches.

 

[chillHayze]

I've had one that was 'iffy'. Tasted a little medicinal, but the flavor improved in the bottles. That one was brewed on a hot day as well. I also attemped a mash with a strainer and a kitchen sink. It was just too messy. I've only brewed about 20 batches so far so 1/20 aint bad I suppose.

 

[Engelramm]

I've got the "ring around the neck" in my Brown Ale bottles. It's odd that only some taste bitter to the point of calling it astringent. I've since adopted a slightly different routine for cleaning and sanitization. I wash everything more thoroughly and I keep a bucket of iodophor around and leave stuff in it until I need it. I've got 3 other batches conditioning in bottles now and I check them every couple of days for mold. We'll see.

 

[alemonkey]

I always try to not pee in my wort.

But sometimes, it just doesn't work out.

 

[Cregar]

So when using iodophor, you think its ok to leave the equipment in the solution till its time to use it or set it out on a clean towel to dry before using? and what about putting back in the solution when done, till time to use it again?

 

[Lost]

i get the feeling that all the emphasis on sanitation is more to scare people into being overly cautious. i KNOW sanitation is serious business, but since i have yet to hear horror stories (as the thread title suggests), i find it hard to believe that minor mistakes made or liberties taken will ruin a batch. for example, i hear a lot about veteran brewers starting siphons with their mouth etc. just a little personal touch that sounds scary to the sanitation-nazis but probably no big deal. am i insane?

I've siphoned.. er.. pumped.. the wort from the kettle into a carboy using a carboy cap and a vacuum... not my brightest move but it worked and I didn't have a problem. I haven't had any horrid experiences with a bad batch myself and I'm no sanitation nazi. I am careful, I just don't wear a surgeon's mask and rubber gloves when I brew

 

[the_bird]

So when using iodophor, you think its ok to leave the equipment in the solution till its time to use it or set it out on a clean towel to dry before using? and what about putting back in the solution when done, till time to use it again?

What's cleaner, the Iodophor or the towel?

Brewing got a lot less stressful when I learned that getting a little bit of Iodophor in the beer (i.e. not COMPLETELY drying things) wasn't a big deal. Usuaully, I'll just give things a couple quick, hard flicks of the wrist to get most of the Iodophor off.

 

[Dude]

What's cleaner, the Iodophor or the towel?

Brewing got a lot less stressful when I learned that getting a little bit of Iodophor in the beer (i.e. not COMPLETELY drying things) wasn't a big deal. Usuaully, I'll just give things a couple quick, hard flicks of the wrist to get most of the Iodophor off.

And then you are right back to square one as you exposed the element to outside air.

Use star san, and don't fear the foam. That's my humble opinion.

 

[the_bird]

But, I'm *using* things right as soon as they come out of solution... they aren't exposed to air for any period of time. When I need my airlock, I take it out of the solution, flick it in the air to take most of the solution off, and install it. Effectively no time has elapsed (at most, twenty seconds).

 

[Cregar]

What's cleaner, the Iodophor or the towel?

Is that like... which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[Dude]

But, I'm *using* things right as soon as they come out of solution... they aren't exposed to air for any period of time. When I need my airlock, I take it out of the solution, flick it in the air to take most of the solution off, and install it. Effectively no time has elapsed (at most, twenty seconds).

Infected.

 

[Carne de Perro]

I know that "real" brewers don't use bleach, (riiiiggghhttt...) but you know, I see the amount of bleach being recomended for sanitization going up and up. Recently some guy told me that no less than 1/2 CUP per gallon would do. Until I made the Star-San switch, I only used a couple tablespoons per 5 GALLONS and never had a single problem. My guess it that the threat is exaggerated but there, and that the reason it's so emphasized is that infection is so easy to prevent.

 

[the_bird]

I could never figure out what the recommended solution for bleach was, another reason I'm happy to have switched to Iodophor.

And I'll prolly try Star San next time, for giggles; from all I've read, each do the job very well, neither is really superior.