Samuel Smiths Organic Chocolate stout clone request

[actionjackson905]

Not that exact recipe, no. I have brewed a couple of good chocolatey stouts recently, but they don't taste like Sam's. Oh well...

That recipe seems a little one dimensional to me at this point. The US chocolate malt has a smooth taste, and I think the beer needs some black malt or roasted barley, even just a little bit. (Sorry, this is not so helpful to you.)

I was trying to keep it simple as a starting point. As well as trying to keep as many malts with UK origin. I think as a second try, I might add more Abbey, and/or up the mash temp to 54. Definitely going to add more Chocolate extract at kegging. I'm very open to suggestions of what to add or remove. I don't think we are ever going to nail this down to a perfect knock off, but I think we can come close enough to make it worth making. Like I said. That one wasn't close, but wasn't bad either. Half that keg is gone. I'm going to try to bottle the rest this weekend and plan another try at it. Also going to change the water profile for this one, based on my local water.

 

[thunderaxe]

@actionjackson905 tell me more about abbey malt. the name is off-putting to me as i assumed it would be something along the lines of special B but your description of sweet, malt, honey, and vanilla is very intriguing to me!

 

[actionjackson905]

@actionjackson905 tell me more about abbey malt. the name is off-putting to me as i assumed it would be something along the lines of special B but your description of sweet, malt, honey, and vanilla is very intriguing to me!

@thunderax Apologies for the delayed response. Haven't been on this forum for a while. Attached is the info from Weyermann on the Abbey. I came across it completely by accident as I was given about 50lbs from a brewery that was getting rid of unused malt. I haven't used it on anything other than the stout.

 

[Ragman]

Subscribed - I know its old but I absolutely love the dedication and perseverance in this thread.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yeah, it's an epic, collective under-achievement to be sure. This is a tough one to approach.

Your post actually prompted me to read through the thread again, as I haven't attempted to brew something similar too recently. But I happen to have an English stout in primary right now, and it happens to be OG 1.058 and 33 IBU.

I just took a gravity sample in a shot glass and added a single drop of Hershey's syrup. Then I microwaved it for 5 seconds and stirred it in. Hmm, that was interesting. It had the closest chocolate aroma and flavor so far. I made some posts on this thread about blending in a sweetened syrup post-fermentation, and chilling to drop the yeast (Sam's would filter). I think this is the right track, and I may experiment with this batch.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have made some real progress on this quest, and I have a base stout recipe to share. The only problem is that I'm not yet ready to commit on how to incorporate the chocolate, which in this case was Hershey's syrup. I've only added it to the glass so far, but the taste is amazing. I have to figure out how to incorporate it into the actual serving package. I *think* it can be added during priming, but I only feel secure doing this in a keg for now. With bottles, it's much more of a risk.

Is anyone interested in the base recipe yet, or is this a premature announcement?

 

[thunderaxe]

i'd certainly be interested in the base recipe

 

[SouthBounds]

Sub'd! My attempt tasted like a tootsie roll. Good but not SS.

 

[McKnuckle]

First let me state that by no means am I claiming to have used the exact ingredients as SS. I was not trying to clone anything when I brewed this. But serendipity entered the picture, and it tastes like a good foundation for this elusive beer.

Vitals:
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.016
IBU: 33
SRM: 30.5
ABV: 5.5%
Att: 71.4%

Fermentables:
Fawcett Pearl Malt 73.5% (any M.O. or UK pale will do)
Baird's Crystal 150L 12%
Crisp Brown Malt 7%
Lyle's Black Treacle 4.5%
Fawcett Pale Chocolate 3%

Hops:
Fuggle @ 50 min. to 33 IBU
BU:GU 0.57

Water:
Ca 85, Mg 0, Na 65, Cl 111, SO4 52
Est. mash pH 5.42 (Brewfather)
Boil 60 min.

Mash:
Single infusion, 154F for 90 min
Mash-out, 170 for 10 min, optional

Fermentation:
Disclaimer - use WY1469 for potentially more authentic flavor. The info below is "as brewed" for the record.
Safale S-04, pitch at 58F, set temp to 62F
Ferment 2 days @ 62F, then raise temp to 65F
Ferment 4 days @ 65F, then raise temp to 67F
Ferment/condition 5 days @ 67, then package
(11 days total, krausen dropped on day 8)

Packaging:
Chocolate syrup, 1 Tbsp/gal of packaged beer (~3/8 tsp / 16 oz. pint). Dissolve in small amount of boiled water and add to keg. Rack beer into syrup solution to mix well. Chill to serving temp and force carbonate. Optionally, add sugar as well and carbonate naturally to approx. 1.8 vol. CO2 (I have yet to work out the proportion, but it would be based on the sugar content of the syrup you use).

Ideally, serve at proper UK cask cellar temps (11-13C). This is not a beer to serve cold or very fizzy. But that part is up to you.

 

[SouthBounds]

I like your grain build better than mine. I had to back sweeten as well.

Thanks for a solid shot at it!

 

[McKnuckle]

These fermentables produced a very mellow stout with a sweet backbone and a bit of tang. If you drink Sam Smith critically, you'll notice it has barely any roast character at all.

The beer I brewed is appropriately dark, but not black; in the light it shows a deep ruby color. It could be that a touch of proper UK chocolate malt (not pale choc.) or even roasted barley might be advised. Of course I'm going to tweak this a little and experiment. I think the dark crystal, brown malt, and treacle (or invert #3, or a combo) are keepers in the recipe.

Also, as noted, I'm going to re-brew with Wyeast 1469, which at least comes from Yorkshire. I have that going with a couple of other British recipes now, playing with the temp schedule. Once settled on temps I'll apply that to the stout. Safale S-04 is probably a little too clean with this beer, as the classic Sam Smith diacetyl and je ne sais quoi are missing.

Even if you ignore the chocolate addition, it's a very nice beer!

 

[thunderaxe]

the problem with using chocolate syrups is that they almost always contain preservatives and other unwholesome ingredients.
this is the only exception i've been able to find, but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere near me:

https://www.hersheys.com/en_us/products/hersheys-simply-5-syrup-21.8-ounce-bottle.html

 

[McKnuckle]

I don't think it matters very much. By the time you are putting this into the keg, you are already at final gravity. You don't need to rely on it for priming, and in fact, doing so is experimental at best. I would use sugar. Or just force carbonate and not worry.

I've played with multiple types of chocolate and syrup is literally the only taste that's come close to Sam's. If you think about producing a beer like this at scale, it makes total sense that they would add a syrup adjunct and not something esoteric like cacao nibs.

 

[thunderaxe]

sure, their website says they use an organic chocolate extract, i just figured it's more likely something like this:
https://cholaca.com/than an off-the-shelf syrup made for pouring into milk

 

[deuc224]

Or you guys can back sweet it organically. Im looking to back sweeten a stout this weekend i just know with what.

 

[McKnuckle]

I don't think the commercial purpose of the product really matters, just the composition. We want cocoa in the beer. Beans or nibs are solid. Powder does not absorb. Bars have fat and can't be added late. I have tried extract and it was very underwhelming. I bought some and also made some.

Cholaca looks interesting, for sure. It's probably not too different from a boutique syrup, mostly just lacking the sugar - you know?

Chocolate syrup can be made with cocoa powder, sugar, and water. Most recipes add a pinch of salt and/or vanilla. Sounds great. It easily mixes into hot liquid, and has the right flavor. Easy to buy or make at home.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Water:
Ca 85, Mg 0, Na 65, Cl 111, SO4 52

I know it wasn't intended as such, but that's not a very British water profile, and certainly not a Tadcaster profile. The "Burton of the North" is famous for drawing well water from what used to be known as the Upper and Lower Magnesian Limestone (now the Brotherton and Cadeby Formations) which are capped with gypsum and as the name suggests are dolomitic. So the well water could easily be 50ppm Mg, >150ppm Ca, >400+++ ppm SO4 - I've heard of wells going up to 2000ppm SO4 away from Tadcaster.

I don't know what they do in terms of treatment of water or blending with surface water - I can confirm that there's no shortage of rain in Yorkshire!

 

[McKnuckle]

I appreciate those details, but I have never had the guts to stray higher than 200 ppm SO4 in my brewing experiments to date. It just scares me. And 50 ppm Mg! Yikes.

Most importantly, the water profile I used yielded an appropriate mash pH of 5.42. It has a soft and smooth mouthfeel, which is what I was hoping for. I guess that's partly due to the chloride.

One of these days I will try brewing a small batch with a more extreme Yorkshire/Burton water profile, probably on a bitter, though. At least there are no dark roasted malts to contend with, lowering the pH beyond what is manageable with baking soda.

Have you tried brewing with the type of profile you mention, @Northern_Brewer ?

 

[ShepFL]

What about this as a starting point?

Ingredients:​

• 8 lbs Maris Otter Pale Malt
• 1 lb Chocolate Malt
• 1 lb Munich Malt
• 0.5 lb Flaked Barley
• 0.5 lb Crystal Malt (60L)
• 0.5 lb Black Patent Malt
• 0.5 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt (120L)
• 1 oz East Kent Goldings Hops (60 minutes)
• 1 oz Fuggle Hops (15 minutes)
• 1 Whirlfloc Tablet (15 minutes)
• 4 oz Cocoa Nibs (in secondary fermentation)
• 1 package of English Ale Yeast (e.g., Wyeast 1968 or Safale S-04)
• 6 oz Woodruff extract

 

[Termite]

Hi everyone,

I recently tried Samuel Smiths Organic Chocolate stout and fell in love with the sweet chocolatey taste. I was wondering if anyone has a close clone or a good recipe for a sweet chocolate tasting stout like this I could try out. I havent had much luck with finding a "sweet chocolate stout" and am maybe considering lactose since its not fermentable. The recipe/ideas could be for either a extract or all grain but preferably all grain. I cant keg so anything requiring stopped fermentation wouldnt work. I would like to stay away from the artificial flavorings too if possible but am open to trying them if necessary.


Thanks in advance

Several years I was in Williamsburg, VA and had some Old Stitch beer in one of their restaurants and LOVED it. It is a dark beer that they called an Ale. I now live in Washington state and can't get it here but it is brewed in Richmond, VA so it should be available in that area. It had a definite chocolate after taste! Good Luck!

 

[Raptor99]

Several years I was in Williamsburg, VA and had some Old Stitch beer in one of their restaurants and LOVED it. It is a dark beer that they called an Ale. I now live in Washington state and can't get it here but it is brewed in Richmond, VA so it should be available in that area. It had a definite chocolate after taste! Good Luck!

It is available at the ABV shop in Hillsboro, OR. So if you ever come down to Portland, you can get it there.

 

[bwible]

Bump this thread again. Would like to brew this, even as a Christmas beer. Its become one of the wife’s favorites.

I’ve worked on a couple chocolate beer recipes over the past couple years. Did a chocolate porter in collaboration with another brewer. And I was working on a clone of Foothills Sexual Chocolate imperial stout for awhile.

The last version of that I made has a large % of chocolate malt (1lb for a 3 gallon batch), cocoa nibs in the last 10 min of the boil, chocolate liqueur (creme de cocoa) added at flameout, more cocoa nibs in the secondary, and chocolate extract from Apex added at bottling. I went the full .3% they recommend and I’ve tried adding up to .5% to a couple pours. Its chococlatey, was well received by my club and the brewer at the pub where we meet liked it, which I took as a compliment. It still doesn’t have that in your face sweet chocolate candy bar flavor that Sam Smiths has.

Amoretti makes some strong chocolate extract. I think I saw one of theirs that says 2 oz flavors 111 gallons of beer or something. Its not cheap, about $70 for 2 oz. I know Amoretti makes other extracts in a pump bottle, one of the guys in our club uses it.

Sam Smith is also known for their oatmeal stout. I wonder if any oatmeal goes into the chocolate stout too and if that would bring anything to the table.

I wonder if they are using any kind of unfermentable artificial sweetener to get that sweetness. Sucralose, Stevia, Xylitol, Erytherol, etc.

Speaking of sweetness, if we use crystal malt for this recipe, I’d think use more of a lower color. Ie 1 pound of 20 vs 4 oz of 80.

Thats about all I can add.

 

[bwible]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/brewing-with-chocolate-methods-and-process.679059/

Worth a review, I’ve looked at it many times

 

[bwible]

https://www.hersheyland.com/products/hersheys-sugar-free-chocolate-syrup-17-5-oz-bottle.html

Something else I thought about. Sugar free so it could even be added at bottling. The sugar free has been hard to find lately though - and I’m in PA less than 1.5 hours from Hershey!

 

[deuc224]

Just letting everyone know that ive done a pretty good stout looking to clone the SS chocolate brew. The one thing ive done is add 6oz of homemade chocolate extract to the keg. Also added 1 cup of erythritol 55 minutes into the boil. It might have been too sweet at the end so half a cup would have been perfect. Ill probably do this recipe again in 2 weeks, thanks for reminding me of this one!