Sam Adams to lose craft beer status

[remilard]

?? I thought BMC (one of them) owned Sam Adams.
Ever notice how the ads NEVER use the "bland dull American beers" anymore? Can't bash yourself.

Boston Brewing Company is independent.

 

[remilard]

I can walk down to my local 7-11 and buy SA and i can do the same pretty much anywhere else.....to me that is not a craft brewer. I have never seen a national ad for the other bigger "craft" brewers like Stone, Dogfishhead, Rogue, Sierra Nevada etc yet i can see an SA one every day. That disqualifies them in my book!

I used to buy Rogue and Stone at a convenience store on my walk home from work in Portland. Most convenience stores in Kansas City at least carry Boulevard which most people consider a craft brewer and who is slightly larger than Rogue or Stone and with no TV advertising.

I don't think your 7-11 test works.

 

[agroff383]

Re-read the replies. Not everyone.

To all BBC haters:

1) BA is a trade organization. Back in the day they set up some definitions to define who they were and some goals to define where they wanted to be. That way they could exert some political pressure (among other things) on legislative bodies to help them grow. Lobbies and legislative efforts are not exclusively used by AB, in fact the AHA has a lobby tio protect your damn rights as a home brewers, so get off that high horse.

2) The BA used the existing excise tax designations to exclude the largest 3 breweries. They used "independently owned" to stave off big 3 buy outs from diluting their trad organization.

3) The entire point of the BA is to GROW. To get big! To have a larger marketshare for craft beer. If you kick out members that make craft beer once they are successful is completely insane.

4) One of BA's stated goals is to obtain 10% marketshare. If you kick out BBC, the BA loses about 20% of it's barrelage to about 3.5% marketshare plus one of it's most prolific spokesmen and champion. If you dis' Jim Koch, I will fight you!

If you've had just a handful of BBC's beers and you are a homebrewer, then I will tell you that Jim has probably spent more money on you then you have on them.

I'll say it again.

If you've had just a handful of BBC's beers and you are a homebrewer, then I will tell you that Jim has probably spent more money on you then you have on them.

BBC is craft beer, Craft beer isn't just beers you like.

Well said sir. I think we should be happy that BBC is growing, this means it has become a gateway of sorts for people who drink BMC to try something completely different, like ale.

 

[agroff383]

Most certainly. Between them and Mega Target WalMart does have the lowest prices and the larger selection.

How on earth has it become shiek to be irrtated by success.

Because they barter down the suppliers? Well, those suppliers weren't forced to do business with them.

Because it hurts Mom and Pops? Sorry. Too bad. That's business and business is a competition.

Lack of service? Yeah. I am smart enough to read a fooking package to know that I got what I need. Don't need "Ed" to decide that for me.

Awesome post. Why does more than half this board bash a large company that they could never conjure up in their wildest dreams? Imagine starting like Jim Koch did, whether he had a rich uncle or a trust fund he still did something right to make the company as big as it was, if he didn't do it someone else would have anyway...why must success be bashed? Every American should want to be that successful starting their own business, the zenith of independence and sheer will. If you never have that dream or don't want that dream I feel sorry for you.


And yes business is a competition, like sports. You suck, you lose. If you can't win you get better and find a superior way to play, or you are done.

 

[harrydrez]

How on earth has it become shiek to be irrtated by success.

Liberals. They despise success and profits. They believe that corporations exist to screw people, so they must be punished. That explains it.

Gosh, they're terrible right? Providing goods we want of a decent, consistent quality for a reasonable price. Terrible.

More power to the BBC, our current tax code is ridiculous and arbitrary.

 

[olllllo]

Liberals. They despise success and profits. They believe that corporations exist to screw people, so they must be punished. That explains it.

Gosh, they're terrible right? Providing goods we want of a decent, consistent quality for a reasonable price. Terrible.

More power to the BBC, our current tax code is ridiculous and arbitrary.

Put down your big paintbrush. This isn't the debate forum.

Apart from that, I'm reasonably sure Jim Koch is a Democrat.

 

[billvon]

Awesome post. Why does more than half this board bash a large company that they could never conjure up in their wildest dreams?

I don't see more than half the people here 'bashing' BBC. Several are disagreeing with their status as craft brewers, which is not the same as bashing them.

Every American should want to be that successful starting their own business, the zenith of independence and sheer will. If you never have that dream or don't want that dream I feel sorry for you.

And there are some people who just want to do what they're good at, and don't have dreams of power or riches. Many here just want to make beer, and some people here are really good at it. Nothing wrong with that.

Heck, there are some breweries out there who are happy remaining small. That doesn't mean they're any better or worse than BBC, just different. I have the most respect for the breweries out there who make good beer their #1 goal, as opposed to just becoming as big and as rich as possible.

 

[beerchemist]

I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy several beers made by the Boston Beer Co.

I don't know Jim Koch. I neither like nor dislike the man. But look at his background: JD, MBA, and work at the Boston Consulting Group. For those who aren't familiar with BCG, they basically train people to maximize profits for companies by finding and exploiting even the tiniest margins. He is a businessman first and foremost. Again, this is neither a good nor bad thing. It's his company--he can run it however he wants. He has, as far as I can tell, been an advocate for Craft Brewers, which we can all agree is a Good Thing. That doesn't mean that he is still one. Regardless, I don't see the need to rush and anoint Koch as some sort of messianic figure. A cynic could even see his generosity during the hop shortage as a cheap marketing stunt. Contrast his growth with the approach taken by Fritz Maytag, formerly of Anchor Brewing:

"Big is not always better," Maytag says during an interview in his book-lined office. "Small companies like ours can still knock 'em dead."
...
"We realized we didn't have to sell out and bring in new investors and capital,"
...
"We realized it would change all the things we loved about this place."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2006-10-25-bonus-staying-small_x.htm

Of course, Maytag finally sold Anchor a few months ago. We'll see how that works out in the long term.

And back to the numbers, the ever-helpful Wikipedia puts BBC at 1.4 MMbbl/Y and Yuengling at 3.6. Both companies offer light beers, which is where I personally draw the line between craft brewers and places where the accountants have taken over. YMMV.

 

[Starderup]

I can only say that I do admire his determination during the early years of Samuel Adams, where Koch kept bottles of beer in his briefcase and took them around to bars and brewpubs offering them for tasting.
Anchor definitely has my admiration, mainly because 12 years after I had a draft Porter at SFO, I still remember how good that beer was. I hope their sale doesn't change the quality of that outstanding brewery.
Yuengling is WAY overrated. The last six pack I bought, I didn't finish for weeks.
Finally, there is nothing wrong with playing by the rules, or changing them if it benefits you and you can do it.

 

[Homercidal]

Nobody can dispute Jim Koch's passion for craft beer. And I doubt most of us here would oppose a tax system that helps smaller brewers.

I just find it "interesting" that Koch wants to change the tax system so that he can continue to call himself a "Craft Brewer". That's what it all comes down to. He has built his business around the notion that they make "Craft Beer", differentiating themselves from the bigger brewers. He rightfully doesn't want to lose that status.

Whether or not he is pushing for a tax reform with other small brewers in mind, or simply using that as a means of retaining his craft beer status, I don't know. But if the tax reform can help the little guys, and help keep increasing the number of small breweries, I'm all for it.

 

[weirdboy]

I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy several beers made by the Boston Beer Co.

I don't know Jim Koch. I neither like nor dislike the man. But look at his background: JD, MBA, and work at the Boston Consulting Group. For those who aren't familiar with BCG, they basically train people to maximize profits for companies by finding and exploiting even the tiniest margins. He is a businessman first and foremost. Again, this is neither a good nor bad thing. It's his company--he can run it however he wants. He has, as far as I can tell, been an advocate for Craft Brewers, which we can all agree is a Good Thing. That doesn't mean that he is still one. Regardless, I don't see the need to rush and anoint Koch as some sort of messianic figure. A cynic could even see his generosity during the hop shortage as a cheap marketing stunt. Contrast his growth with the approach taken by Fritz Maytag, formerly of Anchor Brewing:



http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2006-10-25-bonus-staying-small_x.htm

Of course, Maytag finally sold Anchor a few months ago. We'll see how that works out in the long term.

And back to the numbers, the ever-helpful Wikipedia puts BBC at 1.4 MMbbl/Y and Yuengling at 3.6. Both companies offer light beers, which is where I personally draw the line between craft brewers and places where the accountants have taken over. YMMV.

So, according to those numbers, Yuengling would also benefit from the proposed tax change.

 

[a10t2]

I just find it "interesting" that Koch wants to change the tax system so that he can continue to call himself a "Craft Brewer".

The term "craft brewer" is defined by the Brewers' Association. It has nothing to do with the excise tax bill.

Plus it isn't like the BA's definition has the force of law. BBC could continue to label themselves "craft brewer" - or anything else they want - no matter how large they get.

 

[AndyCap]

Yeah, I agree. "Craft Beer" is a term I would use for brewers that literally "craft" their beer. SA continues to do this, while at the same time mass producing a standard as well. let's face it, Boston Lager is no longer a craft beer simply due to the # of cases produced per year. However, it is easilly arguable that Utopias is a crafted beer.

For tax reasons? Yeah SA has to fight that one. It really irks me that this country is so "anti substance" on one hand, yet, the vast majority drink beer or other alcohols. They are taxing based on what is politically correct, and not on what is correct.

I would also point out to the masses just how much SA does for the community. When I say community, I mean the beer community and the local community. During the extreme hop shortage in 2008, SA went ahead and sold half of their hop reserves to microbrewers AT THEIR COST, and therefore, kept them in business. This helped keep these people producing and making money, and paying taxes. This is just one example of SA's committment to the community.

You may not like their beer, but you should respect thier committment.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

The term "craft brewer" is defined by the Brewers' Association. It has nothing to do with the excise tax bill.

Plus it isn't like the BA's definition has the force of law. BBC could continue to label themselves "craft brewer" - or anything else they want - no matter how large they get.

I tried to make a similar point a few pages ago. Apparently, this destroys the debate, so people ignore it.

 

[a10t2]

Surely you don't expect people to read the thread before responding?!

 

[bosox]

Why all the hate for Sam Adams as a craft brewery? They're beers are NOTHING like commercial beers. They've just had great success. I don't think craft has to mean local and small production. They were very helpful to homebrewers whent heir was a hop shortage a few years ago, and donated some of THEIR hops to the homebrewing cause.

I doubt the money is the issue with Sam Adams, but I'd hate for them to just be labeled in the same category as Coors and Budweiser. They're just not.

 

[billvon]

Why all the hate for Sam Adams as a craft brewery?

Hasn't been much hate here. I don't know why people keep saying that.

They're beers are NOTHING like commercial beers. They've just had great success.

Uh, they _are_ commercial beers; they're just good commercial beers. "Craft" beer can mean whatever you (or a brewery) wants. If you think that SA is a craft beer, that's fine. Heck, if you think Budweiser American Ale is a craft beer, that's fine too. The only halfway official definition comes from the Brewer's Association, and neither AB-Inbev nor BBC really qualifies under their definition any more - but people can ignore that particular definition if they choose to.

I doubt the money is the issue with Sam Adams, but I'd hate for them to just be labeled in the same category as Coors and Budweiser. They're just not.

Well, they're no Lost Abbey or Dogfish Head either - but there's room for all sorts of brewers in the world of beer.

 

[olllllo]

Our peer homebrewers in the AHA have spoken in a Zymurgy Poll:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...title=2010-zymurgy-best-beers-in-america-poll

Top-Ranked Beers

T21. Lagunitas IPA
T21. Samuel Adams Boston Lager
T21. Rahr Storm Cloud
T21. Saison Dupont

Brewery Rankings

Brewery rankings are based on total votes received by each brewery's beers. This year's top brewery, by a landslide, is Rahr & Sons Brewing Co. in Fort Worth, Texas. Rahr's loyal fans placed a whopping 12 beers in the top 50.
1. Rahr & Sons Brewing Co. Fort Worth Texas
2. Stone Brewing Co. Escondido Calif.
3. Dogfish Head Craft Brewery Milton Del.
4. Sierra Nevada Brewing Co. Chico Calif.
5. Russian River Brewing Co. Santa Rosa Calif.
6. New Belgium Brewing Co. Fort Collins Colo.
7. Bell’s Brewery Kalamazoo Mich.
8. Boston Beer Co. (Samuel Adams) Boston Mass.

Best Portfolio

We also tabulated which breweries had the most brands in the voting. That honor went to Boston Beer Co. with 22 of its Samuel Adams brews getting votes. Dogfish Head was close behind with 20 brands.
1. Boston Beer Co. (Samuel Adams) (22 beers)
2. Dogfish Head Craft Brewery (20 beers)
3. Rogue Ales (19 beers)
4. New Belgium Brewing Co. (16 beers)
T5. Bell’s Brewery (15 beers)
T5 Deschutes Brewery (15 beers)
T5. New Glarus Brewing Co. (15 beers)
T5. Stone Brewing Co. (15 beers)
T9. Avery Brewing Co. (14 beers)
T9. Rahr & Sons Brewing Co. (14 beers)

 

[DRoyLenz]

I say, way to go Sam Adams!

As far as size of their production, in my opinion this has nothing to do with whether or not I consider them a craft beer or not. If SA did become the same size as any of the big 3, but still put the same amount of effort in to producing quality recipes, with quality ingredients, as well as innovative ideas, then in my mind, their just as much a craft brewery as before.

As far as whether or not I support their cause of getting this bill passed in favor is SA and the other microbreweries, absolutely. I support fewer taxes for SA, because of what they do for the craft beer industry. Most of us, myself included, probably used one of the BBC beers as a means to enhance our beer tastes in the early stages. Furthermore, even though raising the threshold for beer production would pretty much only affect them now, it'll affect other craft breweries as the industry continues to grow.

Early on, people were hating a bit on the fact that SA is lobbying their Senators. I'm not sure I see the problem with going to Washington to fight for what benefits your interests. I just wrote a letter to my Congressman and Senators in regards to an issue I feel strongly about, was that wrong? Sam just has the means to be a little more personal about it and actually go to Washington. Way to be proactive and fight for your interests!

I love brewing, and I love making money. Even though I don't drink much of their product (I like trying new breweries), I am envious of Sam and BBC, and he has my full support!

 

[harrydrez]

Put down your big paintbrush. This isn't the debate forum.

Apart from that, I'm reasonably sure Jim Koch is a Democrat.

Yeah, little outburst I guess.

Though their are liberals in both parties, it's not exclusive to dems. What else could explain it? Anyways, I have great respect for the BBC; they are successful and truly love what they do. They are a craft brewery in my book, albeit a successful one. Give it a couple years and I'm sure some of the other big names will start to reach their level.

What really kills me about this taxation system is how arbitrary it is; the double standard also eats at. Rules regarding taxes or whatever else should apply to everyone or no one.

 

[COLObrewer]

I like boysenberry syrup on my pancakes.

 

[RDWHAHB]

The thing that I don't think all the free market, flat tax, "don't punish sucess" folks get is that a free market requires no entry barriers. I think tax breaks for small breweries can help reduce those.

Or maybe I am just a Liberal that despises success and profits

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

What really kills me about this taxation system is how arbitrary it is; the double standard also eats at. Rules regarding taxes or whatever else should apply to everyone or no one.

There is nothing arbitrary about it. It is deliberately designed to help out smaller companies and those just starting out. While, as a liberal, I have nothing against big corporations, I understand that the future entrepreneurs need a leg up in order to grow their business in order to create competition for the big boys. Without this, the corporations would make sure that the little guys never got off the ground.

It's a free market economy, but with incentives. Without this leg up, competition would be squashed, and the free market would be an economic dictatorship of big business.

 

[olllllo]

Well it's an excise tax for sinful things like alcohol. The tax that other industries don't have to pay. We can all feel free to get bent about that.

 

[babalu87]

Imagine the haters when they read about the Boston Lager steak?

It sounds great though

 

[dukerutledge]

I'm amazed at how long this thread has gotten (not really, but the same arguments keep coming up).

There seem to be a few camps:

1. This is a good thing! Cheaper Beer!
Not going to happen, just cheaper operational costs for the producer. Which is good for small breweries.

2. BBC is a craft brewery and I'm sticking to it, why can't we all just get along and call everyone a craft brewery unless they brew American Lager.
Call them what you may, they are a brewery and a business. Craft brew is just a marketing term used to downgrade BMC and other like minded brewers.

3. BBC is too big and shouldn't be called a craft brewery. Craft breweries are small businesses.
Again, craft brew is a marketing term.

4. They should pay their taxes like true patriots.
If you could get out of paying your taxes...wouldn't you?

5. Lobbying is wrong and smells of "big business"
Lobbying is what businesses do, and so do individuals, just on a smaller scale. Lobbying is not evil, it's a function of government and will always be.

6. Sam Adams isn't good beer and Jim Koch is an ass.
Thank you for your opinion, move along.

7. F$%#K the government taxes are the devil, free market forever!
Thank you for your opinion, now go wage this centuries old battle somewhere else.

or at least that's my take.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I think the problem is how the tax is structured. Selling more than 2 million units triggers a retroactive tax on the first 640k. This means that if a company is going to sell more than 2M, it needs to sell a lot more just to make up the 660k in taxes. Basically, the law says you can't sell between 2M and (fairly random number) 10M. The law doesn't help small brewers grow; it provides a very effective moat for BMC. BMC doesn't really care much one way or the other about craft brewers; it just wants to keep macrobrewing an exclusive club.
If you care about protecting BBC/small brewers, changing 2M to 6M merely delays the real issue. Tax the first however many units at 1 rate and anything over that at a higher rate. This would protect microbrewers but not discourage growth. I'm not really for government protection; but the current system represents the worst of both worlds.

 

[a10t2]

I think the problem is how the tax is structured. Selling more than 2 million units triggers a retroactive tax on the first 640k. This means that if a company is going to sell more than 2M, it needs to sell a lot more just to make up the 660k in taxes.

Not really. At $0.10 per bottle, you need to sell an additional 22,178 bbl (1.1% growth). At $0.50/bottle, which is typical for a micro, it's 4,436 bbl, or 0.22%.

 

[Alsace]

I'm shocked how many people want to bash SA and lump them in with BMC. Regardless of their size and production, anyone who has tasted a fresh boston lager on tap at the boston brewery would have to agree that they are indeed selling a finely crafted beer.

 

[curlyfat]

Damn. I thought this thread died.

 

[Bubba]

They'll call themselves whatever they want (craft), this is 100% about $.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

I don't really care if someone wants to call Sam Adams pico, micro, craft or mega-giant. They can call them whatever they want. All I care about is the taste and quality of the beer, and Sam Adams got it IMHO. I like many of their beers and for some others I personaly don't care much, but I can acknowledge they are good beers. The only one Sam Adams that I think tastes like crap is Sam Adams Light. The rest of them are either good or very good beers and that's all I care about. I had a Boston Lager last night and that reminded me how well those beers are made.