Saison - Get less "funk"

[bolus14]

I've been brewing for about 3.5-4 yrs and brew many different styles. Before getting into homebrewing I enjoyed commercials saisons and figured it would be a style i brewed more of than anything else. Fast forward to now and I believe I have made 4 saisons, I was happy with all of them but they all had a stronger funk/barnyard/hay/ whatever character than the commercial beers I have had. To give examples of the commercial styles I'm referencing I would say Ommegang Hennepin, Stillwater Autumnal, and Allagash Saison.

Out of those three I would say that Allagash has the most of the flavor I'm referencing but it's still mild compared to what I seem to get.

Does anybody have ideas on what could reduce the amount of Belgian "funk?" Do lower or higher fermentation temps have an influence? Maybe it's the strains i'm using, I've used WLP 566, WLP 545, and WY 3711. Out of those three I might say 566 had slightly less of this character but it wasn't a significant difference.

 

[sboyajian]

Higher temps will generally give you a lot more of that traditional belgian funk.

I usually run my 3711 at mid 60's until it finishes, and the yeast gives me more spice than funk.

 

[bolus14]

Any thoughts on how to get more tartness/fruitiness instead of spice? To be more specific i'm thinking I don't want a lot of clove, which seems to be what a lot of people get, although I've never got clove from Belgian strains, Hefe yes, but not Belgian. o me I would say maybe pepper, but even that's a little muddled to my palate.

I'm in the process of putting a list together to convert a side by side fridge to a keezer/ferm chamber/beer fridge, but that might be a little while till I get that done. I can do a swamp cooler to keep temps in the low 60's or can move to different rooms in my house to handle getting the temps up to 80ish ambient, can go warmer in the summer.

 

[berndawg84]

Interesting that you'd get a Brett character, at least that's what your description sounds like.

What temps are you fermenting at? They say for saisons to let it rip up into the high 80's. I've only made 2 so far, so I don't have a lot of comparison yet. First one was an extract batch with 3711, second was all grain with WLP566. Temp control with any Belgian beer really is key. The Saison with 566 I kept at the mid 70's and I do get some nice fruity notes from it, but it is dry.

My copy is at home, but "Brew Like a Monk" has great charts on the flavors you get from using different yeasts at different temperatures. If I recall correctly, the spice/clove notes tend to increase the higher the temp. To get more of the fruitiness, I'd keep your temps in the mid 70's. Keep in mind that Saison yeasts are very active, and that the actual temp of the beer will be several degrees higher than ambient temp.

I have a room that stays in the low 60's. I use a fermentation heater wrap hooked up to an Inkbird 308 temp controller and can get my temps dialed in well. I also suggest getting a thermowell so you can measure the temp of the liquid. Even those adhesive temp strips that you can stick on carboys aren't as accurate. You need a probe in your beer to be truly accurate. Temp control is CRUCIAL for Belgian beers, I'd say more than most other styles.

I'd also suggest a split batch experiment, where you use one yeast in both batches and ferment it at 2 different temps and see what you get.

 

[Mainer]

Wyeast 3711 is a French Saison, which in my experience gives more of a dry, peppery character. Have you tried using Wyeast 3724 Belgain Saison? It ferments a lot hotter and produces a fruitier character. Especially if you're looking to get closer to Allagash, I'd give it a look. They use Belgian yeasts almost exclusively.

 

[Mainer]

Additionally, in my experience, the more you can do to crash or filter the yeast out of your beer, the less of that funk you're going to get. The yeast itself carries a lot of the funk, so the brighter the beer, the cleaner I think you'll perceive that.

 

[bolus14]

I always felt I was getting Brett too, that's when I was only using 566, so I switched to 3711 and got the same thing. So, then decided to go with a non "Saison" strain and still go the same "funk" with 545. So, it seems it's more of a Belgian strain in general for me. I don't recall getting the taste with 1214 when I used that in the 5th or 6th batch that I brewed so I might circle back to that one.

I'd also suggest a split batch experiment, where you use one yeast in both batches and ferment it at 2 different temps and see what you get.

I like this idea and have thought about doing, just never pulled the trigger or had the room to do it until I moved this past summer.

I would agree that 3711 and 566 give a peppery dry finish, I've never found where 566 is from, but both these strains have acted very similarly for me.

I have a fridge in the garage that I mainly use for my bottled beer that I could put the fermenter in for 2-3 days before bottling to try to crash most of the yeast.

I also have WY 3463 (Forbidden Fruit) which has lower attenuation, but I still get better than the 72-76% that Wyeast claims. For the most part I'm looking for 1 or 2 versatile strains that I can use much like Belgian breweries do, run the gamut of Belgian styles with one strain and just modify recipe, mash, ferm temps, etc to get the desired end product.

 

[pvpeacock]

Lower your fermentation temps and try using Danstar Bell Saison dry yeast. I ferment with it at 66 degrees when I want a very clean beer. Northern Brew's Petite Saison is a very clean, crisp recipe to try that doesn't have a lot of funk or musk to it. http://www.northernbrewer.com/petite-saison-d-ete-all-grain-kit?gclid=CN_WmqmZjtMCFUhhfgodOmgJ_Q

 

[cyberbackpacker]

For me, strain and ferm temp are 1a and 1b with regards to flavor development. I used 3724 and typically pitch low 60's (61 or 62) let free rise to about 72 and then maintain that (with a BCS temp probe in a thermowell of the fermenter). This gives me my sweet spot and reduces the clove/funk character. I have a very heightened sensitivity to clove (in general, not just beer), and so the tiniest hint of the flavor to most people hits me like a ton of bricks.

With the above combination I get a flavor I enjoy and does not overpower or detract from the overall beer.

 

[ShareBrewing]

What strain is recommended for the cleanest saison? I don't mind the "saison funk flavor" in small quantities but I don't like when it dominates the beer. As you can tell I'm not the biggest fan of saisons... been brewing for a few years but still have yet to make one.

Question, couldn't you use other microbes to help lessen the saison funk? The brewery I work at just did a collab, which is a hoppy saison but they added Wyeast London Ale yeast first and then when the beer was most-way fermented they added the Wyeast 3711. Havent tasted it yet, but they said it should reduce the overall level of esters/phenols, making for a much cleaner beer. This is because the 3711 didn't have access to the rich nutrients or oxygen of the new wort. Esters and phenols are usually created within the first 72 hours of fermentation. Adding after this point

 

[jfolks]

Lower your fermentation temps and try using Danstar Bell Saison dry yeast. I ferment with it at 66 degrees when I want a very clean beer. Northern Brew's Petite Saison is a very clean, crisp recipe to try that doesn't have a lot of funk or musk to it. http://www.northernbrewer.com/petite-saison-d-ete-all-grain-kit?gclid=CN_WmqmZjtMCFUhhfgodOmgJ_Q

This is my suggestion as well. If you want more fruitiness - try adding some Brett L (more cherry pie, less funk/spice than other Brett strains)

 

[bolus14]

I'm trying to avoid Brett L, I've read what you say about cherry pie, actually thought that might be good in a funnel, but have read the fades fairly quick. Unfortunately I don't roll through my beers all that quickly. Most of my family are Miller and Bud drinkers, which means more for me, but I'm not a heavy drinker so they last a little while.

 

[ShareBrewing]

I work with Brett Lambicus (from White Labs) and it does give a little of the cherry-skin flavor and funk but takes about 2-3 months to get to that character. And I've heard Wyeast Brett Lambicus is much better than the White Labs, apparently more cherry. But I would avoid using Brett to "get less funk"... the Brett may subdue and morph some of the esters and phenols of the saison yeast, but that may not be a "cleaner" beer, per se.

 

[secondbase]

Two of the three beers you mentioned do not use traditional saison strains. Try using a cleaner belgian yeast like wlp550, wlp510, wlp515 or maybe even a wit yeast. That might get you more in the ballpark of what you're looking for.