Saison Dupont Clone...

[Jordan Logo]

Anyone have a clone for this recipe?

All I have found is stupid pound amounts for grain and hops. Everyone knows %s are the only real accurate measurements for recipes.

I've fallen in love with Saisons, so help me!

According to their own video they use 100% pilsner with 3 different "European Hops"

Any suggestions? I'm trying to make the most accurate saison possible.

 

[couchsending]

Highly recommend buying the Farmhouse book by Phil Markowski. It’ll be a better source of knowledge on Saison and BDG than what you’ll find here.

 

[brownni5]

While I agree with the above, it doesn't answer the OP question, and neither does the book. In it, he only reports a very vague "recipe" - Belgian pils malt to 1.054 with EKG and Styrian Goldings "in two additions." Of course, this does not jibe with the reported three varieties above. Have they switched to a Magnum (or the like) first addition?

He then goes on to describe their mash and fermentation process in greater detail.

All this to say, no, I don't have a good clone. Probably plenty online that could get you in the ballpark. Probably lots with sugar additions to achieve the dry final product and Munich to achieve the color without the intense boil.

I don't think there's such thing as an "accurate Saison" - more like a good version of one. While it's absolutely the standard, I don't care for the standard Dupont as much as other commercial saisons by other brewers, or even others in their own lineup (my personal favorite has been old Dupont Foret - I don't know how the recipe differs, but so much more depth than Vielle Provision IMO).

 

[couchsending]

You can't get their hops (most of the european hops we get, especially as home brewers, are trash)
- Supposedly EKG and Styrian Goldings for that matter (or was)
No one knows their exact yeast blend
You have to have specific gear to replicate their mashing process
The boil contributes the color not Munich malt
After primary, cold condition for an unknown time
Bottle condition in Green bottles for 42-56 days at 72-75*

Wait at least 10 months to drink it cause that's at best how old the Saison Dupont you drank is

Trying to "clone" this beer is futile. Reading that book will give you a better fundamental understanding
of saison and how to brew it.

There's a great recipe online from Dan Suarez on Saison. I'd maybe start there.

Just don't use French Saison yeast whatever you do.

Oh and make sure you have totally separate cold side gear for diastaticus yeast. It'll infect everything.

 

[brownni5]

Oh and make sure you have totally separate cold side gear for diastaticus yeast. It'll infect everything.

I disagree. It's yeast. Proper sanitation has not caused me any problems, and I use diastaticus strains a lot (but not exclusively).

I'm starting to feel like diastaticus yeasts are my children and it's my job to defend them.

 

[lowtones84]

Definitely 100% pilsener malt. No sugar additions that I've ever heard of. I get a saison with high % of unmalted spelt (and no sugar additions) below 1.00 every time by mash regime and fermentation schedule.

To do their EXACT mash schedule, yes you need special equipment. You can replicate it other ways though. Just lots of small steps...

Personally I would go any good noble-ish hops that you have, at least one decent late charge, no dry hop. You're never going to clone Dupont, but getting something reminiscent is certainly possible and worth looking after.

 

[Ridenour64]

You can't get their hops (most of the european hops we get, especially as home brewers, are trash)
- Supposedly EKG and Styrian Goldings for that matter (or was)
No one knows their exact yeast blend
You have to have specific gear to replicate their mashing process
The boil contributes the color not Munich malt
After primary, cold condition for an unknown time
Bottle condition in Green bottles for 42-56 days at 72-75*

Wait at least 10 months to drink it cause that's at best how old the Saison Dupont you drank is

Trying to "clone" this beer is futile. Reading that book will give you a better fundamental understanding
of saison and how to brew it.

There's a great recipe online from Dan Suarez on Saison. I'd maybe start there.

Just don't use French Saison yeast whatever you do.

Oh and make sure you have totally separate cold side gear for diastaticus yeast. It'll infect everything.

what’s the issue with French strains? I’ve never had a commercial or home brewed saison. But I have one in my fermenter currently and a French saison yeast was used. Samples have tasted great. As mentioned I don't have anything to compare it to, and I wasn’t attempting any clone. Has been In the fermenter for almost 4 weeks and I still don’t think it’s done. When I tested the gravity (2 weeks ago) it was 1.002. I’m confident it’s below 1 now. I’ll check soon.

 

[lowtones84]

I think couchsending is basically saying that while French Saison (literally that specific strain) is often considered the Dupont strain, it is in fact, not. Nothing wrong with French strains or even that specific strain necessarily.

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

I think couchsending is basically saying that while French Saison (literally that specific strain) is often considered the Dupont strain, it is in fact, not. Nothing wrong with French strains or even that specific strain necessarily.

WLP565/Wy3724 Belgian Saison strains are typically considered the Dupont strains, the Wyeast French Saison strain is supposedly from Brasserie Thiriez.

 

[lowtones84]

WLP565/Wy3724 Belgian Saison strains are typically considered the Dupont strains, the Wyeast French Saison strain is supposedly from Brasserie Thiriez.

Right, thanks for the correction. Either way, most people who love Dupont and brew a lot of Saison understand that the true Dupont strain isn't commercially available. 565 and 3724 also have fairly different profiles in my experience.

While Dupont centrifuges their primary yeast out, I've had good luck culturing whatever is in the bottle. That yeast is part of the character of the finished beer, so I've always cultured some of the bottle yeast when trying to brew a Dupont-esque saison. YMMV.

 

[couchsending]

I hate French Saison yeast. Hate hate hate. People love it cause it’s easy, not cause it makes great Saison. However blending it in with 3724/565/566 is a good way to get it’s trusty attenuation but the flavor and aroma profile of better saison yeast.

You only need like 1g of Belle Saison for it to do its magic.

 

[Ridenour64]

Error

 

[brownni5]

what’s the issue with French strains? I’ve never had a commercial or home brewed saison. But I have one in my fermenter currently and a French saison yeast was used. Samples have tasted great. As mentioned I don't have anything to compare it to, and I wasn’t attempting any clone. Has been In the fermenter for almost 4 weeks and I still don’t think it’s done. When I tested the gravity (2 weeks ago) it was 1.002. I’m confident it’s below 1 now. I’ll check soon.

4 weeks with French Saison? It's done.

Ok, I have no way of knowing, but that's the most reliable fermenting strain ever discussed. It's very likely at terminal gravity though may round out with conditioning.

I have trouble getting any decent commercial beers in Western MN, let alone Dupont. Don't know where you are, but if you have the chance, pick one up. Perennial out of St. Louis has some good ones. Many local brew pubs will make one, few in my experience make a good one. There are lots of really good examples, but many of the popular American breweries make theirs with Brett and or bugs. I like that, but not really comparable to the good standard, Dupont.

 

[Ridenour64]

4 weeks with French Saison? It's done.

Ok, I have no way of knowing, but that's the most reliable fermenting strain ever discussed. It's very likely at terminal gravity though may round out with conditioning.

I have trouble getting any decent commercial beers in Western MN, let alone Dupont. Don't know where you are, but if you have the chance, pick one up. Perennial out of St. Louis has some good ones. Many local brew pubs will make one, few in my experience make a good one. There are lots of really good examples, but many of the popular American breweries make theirs with Brett and or bugs. I like that, but not really comparable to the good standard, Dupont.

up until about 4 days ago, it was still throwing bubbles out of the blow off line (slowly, but surely). About 4 days ago, I closed the ball lock on my unitank and it’s built up, slowly, to about 8 psi. I’m not convinced it’s done just yet.

I have a local liquor store that carries a huge selection of craft beers, but because of corona virus, they’ve been closed for some time. I’m not aware of any other stores that have a selection that may include a saison. I’ve looked at a few. And all of the bars are closed. I’m just off Cleveland, Ohio.

 

[lowtones84]

I have trouble getting any decent commercial beers in Western MN, let alone Dupont. Don't know where you are, but if you have the chance, pick one up. Perennial out of St. Louis has some good ones. Many local brew pubs will make one, few in my experience make a good one. There are lots of really good examples, but many of the popular American breweries make theirs with Brett and or bugs. I like that, but not really comparable to the good standard, Dupont.

Yeah, all the American saisons I get now are either sour or basically NEIPAs with a saison yeast. Not that they're bad beers it's just hard for me to really call them saisons. Others would probably disagree and that's fine.

Tank 7 (Boulevard) and Hennepin (Ommegang) are still solid, fairly available versions in my opinion and have withstood the test of time. Wait, what were we talking about?

 

[couchsending]

Yeah, all the American saisons I get now are either sour or basically NEIPAs with a saison yeast. Not that they're bad beers it's just hard for me to really call them saisons. Others would probably disagree and that's fine.

Tank 7 (Boulevard) and Hennepin (Ommegang) are still solid, fairly available versions in my opinion and have withstood the test of time. Wait, what were we talking about?

And I wouldn’t really call those Saisons either. They’re “American Saisons” for sure but the ABV and the spicing is very much not what true Saison is in my book. Yes some of the Belgian producers make beer that high in ABV but generally they’re sub 6% beer with no spicing.

It’s pretty hard to find really well made traditional Saison that isn’t mixed ferment any more. At least made here in the US.

Personally I prefer Saisons with Brett in them. Not sour necessarily but way more complex and just a little tart.

Highly recommend anything from Blaugies if you can find it. They have a much bigger facility now so it’s a bit easier to come by.

 

[ihavenonickname]

To the OPs request, the best saison I have made was a DuPont “clone” - I got the recipe from San Diego “the Homebrewer” they have a legit little brewery and Chris their old head brewer did at least a dozen attempts at cloning DuPont - he called ChuPont. His key was pitching a wine yeast and letting it mature in the keg at room temp for 6 weeks. It really brought out the peppery character.
See the recipe here:
https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/1908559

 

[theQ]

To the OPs request, the best saison I have made was a DuPont “clone” - I got the recipe from San Diego “the Homebrewer” they have a legit little brewery and Chris their old head brewer did at least a dozen attempts at cloning DuPont - he called ChuPont. His key was pitching a wine yeast and letting it mature in the keg at room temp for 6 weeks. It really brought out the peppery character.
See the recipe here:
https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/1908559

Is the wine yeast pitched in the same tome with the 3724 ? Sounds like a good beer to make!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

JFTR, Doug Piper has been shown round the Dupont brewery and also done a separate video on what the manager describes as their "terrible, needy" yeast! (or rather the cold-side in general)




The subtitles struggle with his accent, in particular "wort" comes out as "world" most of the time and "beer" as "bee". They were still using an original open wooden vessel until 2008 before switching to stainless. They use their well water untreated - "pretty hard, lots of bicarbonates". They pitch at 28°C (82°F) and let it free rise, capping it at 35-36°C (95-97°F). Ferment for a week, mature for 1-2 weeks, then add sugar and bottle condition at 23°C (73°) for a minimum of 6 weeks, but will let it go for up to 10 weeks if the required CO2 or taste isn't there. The 75cl bottles are conditioned on their sides, the 33cl bottles vertically and he prefers the extra complexity that you get with the 75cl bottles as a result.

 

[monkeymath]

They use their well water untreated - "pretty hard, lots of bicarbonates".

I think this is an interesting point, and one most homebrewers are likely to get wrong. Imo the typical water chemistry dogma says "this is a pale beer with 100% pilsner malt, I'm gonna need really soft water to keep my mash pH in check".
There are a number of reasons to control mash pH, but the most obvious one has to do with enzyme activity, which peaks not only at a certain temperature, but also pH. But you will still obtain full conversion, if at a slightly lower speed, outside the optimum range, within reasonable bounds. (Bear in mind that Dupont employs a pretty intense and long mash.)

I just finished Jeff Alworth's "The Secrets of Master Brewers" and this is something that came up in a couple of places: many iconic pale beers are actually made with hard water, and that hardness is an important constituent of the flavour profile. Conversely, Guinness is actually made from soft water.
I found that pretty interesting and it gave me a new perspective on my "shitty, way too hard for anything" water.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

many iconic pale beers are actually made with hard water, and that hardness is an important constituent of the flavour profile. Conversely, Guinness is actually made from soft water.
I found that pretty interesting and it gave me a new perspective on my "shitty, way too hard for anything" water.

The triangle from north of London to Champagne and the Rhine is on chalk - think the White Cliffs of Dover - overlain with varying amounts of clay (particularly eg in East Kent, hence why hops love it there) so yep, the well water from London to Belgium is hard as anything.

 

[Protos]

They use their well water untreated - "pretty hard, lots of bicarbonates".

I wonder, how do they manage to produce a good beer if they realy don't treat their water?
My tap water almost exactly fits Brun's Hainaut profile and is pretty close to water reports from other Belgian brewing regions. Every time I brew a Saison with untreated tap water (as the cited remark suggests) I get very harsh bitterness, whatever the hop. When I use boiled water, I get awesome Saisons: all the style-characteristic funk and hoppiness sans harsh bitterness.
High pH and HCO impart harsher bitterness to any style but it's particularly prominent in the dry style of Saison, with no residual sugars to counterbalance it.
Probably, they use some special hops that tolerate their high-HCO water?