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Safale yeast - economising

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BOBTHEukBREWER

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I have started to use only a quarter of a sachet per 6 gallon brew, making a starter a few hours previous to estimated pitch time. I start with boiled cooled aerated water only, and after 45 minutes add a level teaspoon of brewing sugar, and another an hour later. I have not noticed any difference in my finished beers.
 
If properly rehydrated, you should get close to 100% viability from dry yeast. Those packets generally have 220-230b cells, so if you use 1/4 of that, that'd be about 55b cells.

Generally, maximum cell density in starters is reached in about 18-24 hours. I'm not sure exactly how long it takes for yeast to bud, but I'd bet that you won't get any reproduction with only an hour or so in the starter medium.

So you're probably underpitching, but that brings up an issue of vitality vs viability. 55b healthy cells are better than 100b weak cells, so maybe the short starter just gets the yeast prepped and ready to go?

I would be interested to know if you've tried just pitching 1/4 of a pack straight, without the starter, to see if the starter actually makes a difference?
 
No, I would not dare risk straight pitching, I like to see a one inch thick creamy head on the starter to confirm "vitality". Next step is to use the head on the brew on day 2 to start another batch, then I will be getting 48 gallons per sachet. I already buy crushed maris otter pale malt for 24 UKP per 55 lbs and hops for 27UKP per kilo, so I cannot make any other savings.........
 
Without a controlled experiment, it sounds a bit like voodoo, or wishful thinking to me. Since I doubt you're growing any new cells in a couple hours, the starter is probably just for your peace of mind, and the yeast would work the same, and make the same beer either way.
 
If you're doing this for the science of it, or just out of curiosity, then that's cool. If you're actually using this as a beer producing method, then it seems like a bad idea- wort inoculated with the proper amount of yeast cells tastes better and ferments quicker than grossly underpitching.
 
If it works for you, do it. But it flies in the face of conventional pitching rates. To me, pitching a full packet is worth the $10-12 savings (that you get) just for my peace of mind.
 
If I understand you correctly, the disadvantage of your current method is that you are conditioning the yeast to work on simple sugars instead of malt and you are most likely under pitching. The conventional wisdom to just wash your yeast and reuse a portion from resulting the slurry in the next batch. I really don't think you are gaining anything from quartering the yeast before pitching instead of after.

If you pitched a full fresh pack the first time, saved 4 vessels of slurry from the first batch, and followed the same procedure from each subsequent batch, you would be at 1365 (1+4+16+64+256+1024) total batches after the 5th generation of reuse. Isn't that enough from $3 pack of yeast?
 
It's good that your method works for you, but along the lines of what HomebrewMTB said, if you're already going to the trouble of making starters and using boiled, cooled water, why not just wash your yeast slurry and repitch for several generations? You'll have more cells than you know what to do with if you harvest a whole yeast cake.
 
Yeast is by far one of the most important parts of your beer. Two beers with the same wort will come out extremely different if fermented with two different yeast strains. Here's some good reading from Jamil Zainasheff on pitching rates.

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons
A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).



So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager
 
Why not just brew a btach of beer and then when it is done wash the yeast for future brews? That way you will have plenty of yeast to use, without the risk of under pitching.
 
I agree with Cadams that fermentation is the most important part of brewing. Proper fermentation is the biggest difference between good beer and great beer.

I would say that the "standard" pitching rate can vary a bit based on the recipe and experience. You may find that pitching, say 0.5m/ml/*P could be ideal for your particular recipe, especially for weizens or some Belgian styles. So the "0.75m for an ale and 1.5m for a lager" have a bit of wiggle room.

A quick estimate of the OP's pitching rate, assuming a 6 gallon batch and a modest gravity (12*P), I came up with a factor of 0.2m/ml/*P, which is really, really underpitching.
 
When I make my starter just with a little brewing sugar I get a rocky head on the starter 2 to 4 inches deep. So what is in this head? air? CO2? yeast? I believe in 2 hours the yeast cells are multiplying - I shall go away and search out the theory and report back.
 
I found this - seems spot on and helpful.

Fermentation Time Line
Christopher White, Ph.D.
What is yeast doing during beer fermentation? It is consuming wort sugars, and turning that sugar into new yeast cells, ethanol, CO2, and flavor compounds. Brewers are primarily concerned about flavor compounds. In order to maximize the correct flavor compounds, it is helpful to know how yeast ferments beer.
Ale fermentation of brewers wort follows three phases: lag phase for 3-15 hours, exponential growth phase for 1-4 days, and stationary phase of yeast growth for 3-10 days. Each of these phases will bedescribed in terms of yeast behavior.
Lag phase, 3-15 hours after pitching yeast:
When yeast is pitched into beer, it begins a process of acclimation to the environment. This is known as the "lag" phase. Yeast begin to uptake minerals and amino acids (nitrogen) from wort. Amino acids are used to build proteins. The amino acids that yeast can not obtain or get fast enough from wort need to manufactured by the yeast. Much the same way that humans need 100% of essential vitamins and minerals to make it though the day, yeast cells also need 100% of their vitamins and minerals (nutrients) to make it though a fermentation properly nourished.
All-malt wort is an excellent source of nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins. Most of the vitamins yeast need for proper fermentation are supplied in wort. Some examples of necessary vitamins are riboflavin, insositol, and biotin. Important minerals are phosphorous, sulphur, copper, iron, zinc, potassium, and sodium. As the minerals and vitamins are taken up from wort, yeast begins to manufacture enzymes
necessary for growth. Wort can be supplemented with additional minerals and vitamins by using commercially available yeast nutrients, which will improve the health and performance of yeast.
Oxygen is rapidly absorbed from the wort during the lag phase. The yeast need this oxygen to grow in order to produce important cell wall constituents. It is important to provide enough oxygen into wort at the beginning of fermentation. By shaking the fermentor, a homebrewer is able to, at best, add about half the recommended level of 10 ppm oxygen into solution. This will produce satisfactory fermentation results,
but to make sure a healthy fermentation will take place, oxygen can be added to the fermentor with several commercially available systems.
The lag phase can be carried out at a higher temperature than the rest of fermentation because very little flavor compounds are produced. Ethanol production is also very limited, therefore ester formation is not a concern. Some brewers begin the lag phase for ales at 72-750F, and complete the fermentation at 680F.
This can be done with success for lagers too, with starting the lag phase at 72-750F and lowering the fermentation temperature to 50-550F.
Brewers will not see any visible activity during the lag phase, hence the way it got its name. But this phase is very important in building new healthy cells that will be able to complete fermentation. If the wort is overpitched, this will decrease the lag phase, and each individual cell will not be as healthy at the end of fermentation. Although it may feel reassuring to a homebrewer to see fermentation activity within one hour of pitching yeast, it is not best for the yeast.
Exponential growth phase: 1-4 days:
As the yeast comes out of lag phase, it starts to consume the sugars in solution. CO2 is produced, which starts to expel from the airlock and create of surface layer of foam on the beer. The exponential, or logarithmic, phase of yeast growth is now starting. During this phase, the cell count will increase rapidly, and ethanol and flavor compounds will be produced. Airlocks will bubble like crazy within this time frame. The aroma that escapes from the airlock of most neutral ale yeast fermentations has an "olive" smell.
The exponential phase occurs because yeast rapidly consume sugar. Wort sugar is consumed by yeast in a certain pattern. Glucose is used first, then fructose and sucrose. These are simple sugars, and can be quickly shuttled into metabolism. The glucose concentration in wort is roughly 14% of wort sugars.
Maltose is the centerpiece sugar of malt, and is a very important flavor component. It makes up 59% of wort sugars, and its use by yeast gives beer its characteristic flavors. There are 1 to 5 genes in yeast DNA that "turn on" in response to maltose, allowing for fermentation by brewers yeast. After maltose enters the cell through a special uptake mechanism, it is hydrolysed into glucose units by maltase enzymes. Glucose can then enter the normal metabolism cycle.
Maltotriose is fermented last. This is a tricky sugar for yeast to digest, and some yeast ferment maltotriose better then others. Some strains of brewers yeast do not ferment maltotriose at all! The more flocculent a yeast strain, the less maltotriose they tend to ferment. The ability to ferment maltotriose gives each strain its characteristic attenuation range.
At the height of activity, the beer is said to be at "high krausen". The head of foam on top of the fermentation turns yellow to brown. The colors stem primarily from precipitated malt and hop components. Brown spots form from oxidized hop resins.
Stationary phase of yeast growth- 3-10 days: At this point, yeast growth slows down, and yeast enter into a stationary phase of growth. Most of the
flavor and aroma compounds have been produced, which include fusel alcohols, esters, and sulfur compounds. The beer is called "green beer" because it does not yet have the acceptable balance of flavors.
Beer is matured in the stationary phase of growth, also known as the conditioning phase. Yeast reabsorb diacytyl that was produced during fermentation, and hydrogen sulphide escapes from the top of the fermentor as a gas. The krausen falls, and yeast begin to settle out, or "flocculate". It is important to check
the degree of attenuation at this point to confirm that the yeast has completed fermentation. Some strains of yeast will begin to flocculate out before terminal gravity has been reached, and need to be "roused" back into solution.
Professional breweries will cool the contents of the fermentor gradually to 35-400F, which will force most of the yeast to flocculate. Most homebrewers do not have the facilities to do this, so they must wait for the fermentor to "clear". If the homebrew is to be bottled, flocculation can be allowed to complete in the bottles.
The three phases of yeast fermentation are lag phase, exponential growth phase, and stationary phase. By knowing what is going on in the fermentor during these phases, a homebrewer will be more comfortable
 
2-4 inch head on a starter? Wow!

And you believe in 2 hours the yeast cells are multiplying? They are multiplying as soon as you throw them in. Almost. And I'm still not sure of what you are trying to convey here.
 
If you're trying to save money, or just stretch out your yeast, check out my post at the bottom on farming yeast and freezing it.
 
And you believe in 2 hours the yeast cells are multiplying? They are multiplying as soon as you throw them in. Almost.

According to yeast timeline Bob posted, Chris White thinks that the first 3-15 hours should be the lag phase, and there shouldn't be multiplication then. "If the wort is overpitched, this will decrease the lag phase, and each individual cell will not be as healthy at the end of fermentation."

So it sounds like adding a bit of sugar upon rehydration like Bob does, if it then causes a lot of activity means that the yeast is being overpitched into the "starter" and it makes the yeast less healthy because of the truncated lag phase.
 
You will always be "overpitching" into a starter. Do you think 500mL of wort is the intended product for a vial of yeast? If it was unhealthy for the yeast it wouldn't be practiced and written about so much.

And I'm not so sure I care about the health of the yeast "at the end of fermentation." I also pitch on yeast cakes and secondary though, so take my questions at face value. They are free.
 
From your post with information from Chris White it confirms that you are not growing new cells, you are only acclimating the cells to an environment with simple sugars which lack vital nutrients.
Not the best practice, in my opinion.
As others have said previously, let a previous batch of beer grow yeast cells for you...
 
I have started to use only a quarter of a sachet per 6 gallon brew.

I found about 3gms of Danstar Nottingham dry yeast in my fridge - a leftover from 4 small cider brews I made back in January 2011. Being a cheapskate I decided to increase it and freeze/wash it .
I rehydrated as per Danstar instructions and then pitched the 3gms into 1.5 Litres of wort. After about 24 hrs into the fridge to crash and then after decanting spent wort poured off 60 ml of yeast/sediment into 4 small jars. Added Glycerine solution and froze. The remaining yeast in the E-Flask I fed another 1.5L of wort and 24 hrs later was able to wash and collect approx 100ml of yeast/sediment. I think it is mostly yeast.
I plan to use it this weekend for a batch of BM's Centennial Blonde. My plan was to use about half the washed yeast into a 1 Litre starter and pitch when it at high krausen into the 5.5 Gallon batch.
Can anyone see any major holes in my thinking ?
 
I have started to use only a quarter of a sachet per 6 gallon brew, making a starter a few hours previous to estimated pitch time. I start with boiled cooled aerated water only, and after 45 minutes add a level teaspoon of brewing sugar, and another an hour later. I have not noticed any difference in my finished beers.
Hey, if it works for you, then go for it.
Me personally, I like to economize with dry yeast by simply reusing the slurry. No yeast washing, no starters, just simply reuse the slurry from the previous batch. Two cups of the slurry from the previous batch give me a violent activity in the fermenter within hours after pitching. The rest of the slurry can go in a jar and sit in the fridge for up to a month. This way I can do up to 8-10 batches out of one sachet of dry yeast.
I guess you could also wash some of that yeast too, then you could get many more batches out of that one dry yeast sachet.
 
I found about 3gms of Danstar Nottingham dry yeast in my fridge - a leftover from 4 small cider brews I made back in January 2011. Being a cheapskate I decided to increase it and freeze/wash it .
I rehydrated as per Danstar instructions and then pitched the 3gms into 1.5 Litres of wort. After about 24 hrs into the fridge to crash and then after decanting spent wort poured off 60 ml of yeast/sediment into 4 small jars. Added Glycerine solution and froze. The remaining yeast in the E-Flask I fed another 1.5L of wort and 24 hrs later was able to wash and collect approx 100ml of yeast/sediment. I think it is mostly yeast.
I plan to use it this weekend for a batch of BM's Centennial Blonde. My plan was to use about half the washed yeast into a 1 Litre starter and pitch when it at high krausen into the 5.5 Gallon batch.
Can anyone see any major holes in my thinking ?

Being a cheapskate myself I find a serious hole in your thinking:
Producing wort, as well as getting glycerin solution to freeze yeast costs money, and is more expensive (at least in this area) than just using multiple packets of yeast or using yeast slurry from a previous brew.

To each his own, I guess.
 
Being a cheapskate myself I find a serious hole in your thinking:
Producing wort, as well as getting glycerin solution to freeze yeast costs money, and is more expensive (at least in this area) than just using multiple packets of yeast or using yeast slurry from a previous brew.

To each his own, I guess.

We pay more for our yeast when its available. One of the biggest HBS in the area does not even have Notty. You can pay around $7 US for a pack of dry yeast.
 
Ouch is right. Under 4 bucks around here. Using dry yeast (which I always do) is economizing for me. Liquid is around $7 for me. Yeast health is so important - not sure why this seems to be the go to for cheaping out on recipes.
 
My frozen liquid yeast costs me under $3 pitched to a 5 gallon batch. I haven't seen any dry yeast that cheap.
 
BBL_Brewer said:
My frozen liquid yeast costs me under $3 pitched to a 5 gallon batch. I haven't seen any dry yeast that cheap.

huh? I can't find dry yeast that is actually more than $3.
 
My frozen liquid yeast costs me under $3 pitched to a 5 gallon batch. I haven't seen any dry yeast that cheap.

Are you in the US?
http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/categories/Brewing-Ingredients/Yeast/Dry-Yeast/

US-05, WB-06, T-58, S-33, S-04, Munton's premium, and Coopers are all under $3.

And that's not even getting into the issue of how much your time is worth to you. Unless freezing yeast is something fun you'd do even if it didn't save any money.
 
One point that hasn't been mentioned, dry yeast is very hygroscopic. Once a package is opened, the yeast will absorb just enough moisture from the air to die. You would be much better off using a full packet and then use part of the slurry for the next batch. You can store slurry in the fridge for a month without any problems.

If you want to continue as you have been doing, I'd suggest making your starter 24 hours ahead.
 

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