S-04 and sourness?

[afr0byte]

Do you mean that after a Week in the Primary , the Beer can be bottled ?

Aren't you afraid of bottle bombs ?!

Hector

I wasn't saying that, no. I'm just saying it's not a good idea to transfer the beer off of the yeast before th FG is finished. However, I've had a mild that was at finishing gravity (1.010) after a few days, and I kegged it after a week.

 

[hector]

However, I've had a mild that was at finishing gravity (1.010) after a few days, and I kegged it after a week.

Aha , you didn't bottle it .

I don't keg my Beer , so I should be aware of bottle bombs .

I'm an Extract brewer and by my previous batches the fermentation was always stuck at about 1.020 .

So , next time I'm going to repitch some S-04 on the 5th day , as the fermentation slows down . Then I'll let it ferment for

some more days and transfer it to the Secondary .

Hector

 

[Dr. Francois]

Descriptions and reviews of Whitbread Dry mention the yogurt sourness as part of the flavor profile, not a flaw.

Has anyone done a side-by-side with S-04 and Whitbread Dry?

S-04 makes lousy dark beers for me, but a damn fine Premium English Ale based on the recipe for Otter Head (1.050 OG, 40 IBUs, 15 SRM). Hops balance the tart.

I recommend a modified Fuller's fermentation schedule. Primary in low 60's until FG reached (4-6 days), 2 day D-rest at 70, then cold-crash 1-2 days in primary and package immediately. I even dry hop in primary during the rest. My turnaround on this beer is 8-10 days, not counting carbonation.

I think S-04 descends into madness if it is allowed to sit around with nothing to do, unlike US-05, which is an excellent houseguest.

 

[afr0byte]

Aha , you didn't bottle it .

I don't keg my Beer , so I should be aware of bottle bombs .

I'm an Extract brewer and by my previous batches the fermentation was always stuck at about 1.020 .

So , next time I'm going to repitch some S-04 on the 5th day , as the fermentation slows down . Then I'll let it ferment for

some more days and transfer it to the Secondary .

Hector

Sure, I didn't have to worry about it because of the keg, but it's definitely possible to bottle a beer after a week. I'm not saying you should, especially if your beer is at 1.020, but it's possible. Your extract may just not be all that fermentable. Lots of people report getting stuck at 1.020 with extract.

 

[afr0byte]

S-04 makes lousy dark beers for me, but a damn fine Premium English Ale based on the recipe for Otter Head (1.050 OG, 40 IBUs, 15 SRM). Hops balance the tart.

Huh, a lot of people (myself included) have used S-04 for dry stouts, and the beers come out great. What don't you like about your dark beers with S-04?

 

[hector]

Your extract may just not be all that fermentable. Lots of people report getting stuck at 1.020 with extract.

The DME which I use contains 64% Maltose .

There are many Threads here about "stuck fermentation at 1.020" and it has been discussed long enough .

There are always two suggestions :

1- Arousing the yeast cake

2- Repitching

Hector

 

[afr0byte]

The DME which I use contains 64% Maltose .

There are many Threads here about "stuck fermentation at 1.020" and it has been discussed long enough .

There are always two suggestions :

1- Arousing the yeast cake

2- Repitching

Hector

What are the recipes like? Also, what kind of temperatures are the beers exposed to while they're fermenting? Have they all been S-04?

 

[Dr. Francois]

Huh, a lot of people (myself included) have used S-04 for dry stouts, and the beers come out great. What don't you like about your dark beers with S-04?

Well, I did temper my comment by stipulating it happens to "my" beers. YMMV.
Here are my two theories, completely untested:

1. I don't like the way the esters/tartness clash with the dark roasted grains. I also don't like chocolate covered raisins, yet I like both chocolate and raisins. I just don't care for the combo of dark malt and S-04.

2. Hops may suppress the tartness many posters describe. I like S-04 in beers with a strong bittering addition and a calculated IBU of 35+. Most of my stouts and porters are much lower on the IBUs to boost the richness of the malt. Again, YMMV based on taste and technique.

My dark beers had the tangy flavor...so much that I convinced myself that my equipment had a lacto infection. I switched back to S-05 for stouts and porters and the flavor went away.

 

[afr0byte]

Well, I did temper my comment by stipulating it happens to "my" beers. YMMV.
Here are my two theories, completely untested:

1. I don't like the way the esters/tartness clash with the dark roasted grains. I also don't like chocolate covered raisins, yet I like both chocolate and raisins. I just don't care for the combo of dark malt and S-04.

2. Hops may suppress the tartness many posters describe. I like S-04 in beers with a strong bittering addition and a calculated IBU of 35+. Most of my stouts and porters are much lower on the IBUs to boost the richness of the malt. Again, YMMV based on taste and technique.

My dark beers had the tangy flavor...so much that I convinced myself that my equipment had a lacto infection. I switched back to S-05 for stouts and porters and the flavor went away.

Huh, I haven't used S-04 in a while...I'll have to see if I notice a tartness the next time I use it.

 

[tonyc318]

secondary it.
S-04 breeds fast and has a quick bulk die-off and dormancy. it just wont "clean up after itself" there is just too much matter to clean. It does a great job just slowly plugging away in a secondary.

Yes it will. The last beer I made with it did a fine job after being in the primary for 3 weeks. You are entering the realm of the secondary vs no secondary debate. Lots of people on this forum and people like Jamil and Palmer recommend you leave it in the primary longer unless you're dry hopping or doing extended aging. Maybe I haven't used s-04 enough, but I think you should leave that beer alone for 3-4 weeks and watch the funkiness fall out of that beer.

 

[SwampassJ]

Just pitched this yeast Saturday night at 59 and let it rise to 64. Krausen is already falling back in so I pulled a sample earlier. Still only at ~63 apparent attenuation so I don't think it's quite done yet. Gave it a little swirl and moved the temperature up to 66 to encourage it to not do to me what WLP002 and WLP005 did to me.

The sample I pulled was tart and acidic from all of the yeast in suspension and still fermenting. If I had to peg it to another tart fermenting yeast it tasted like the starter liquid of WLP029 immediately after coming off the stir plate but with more bright fruity flavor. I'll pull another sample in a week or two when it gets transferred for the dry hopping. I'm hoping it doesn't clean up too much and I can keep the esters around. Last two batches with 002/1968 had good malt flavor but cleaned up a big chunk of the fruitiness.

 

[amandabab]

Yes it will. The last beer I made with it did a fine job after being in the primary for 3 weeks. You are entering the realm of the secondary vs no secondary debate. Lots of people on this forum and people like Jamil and Palmer recommend you leave it in the primary longer unless you're dry hopping or doing extended aging. Maybe I haven't used s-04 enough, but I think you should leave that beer alone for 3-4 weeks and watch the funkiness fall out of that beer.

I'm aware of the church of Palmer
But I'm talking about a specific strain of yeast I've used extensively for over a decade and and how to avoid the sourness (that I never get)so many people get after using the strain.

 

[afr0byte]

Yes it will. The last beer I made with it did a fine job after being in the primary for 3 weeks. You are entering the realm of the secondary vs no secondary debate. Lots of people on this forum and people like Jamil and Palmer recommend you leave it in the primary longer unless you're dry hopping or doing extended aging. Maybe I haven't used s-04 enough, but I think you should leave that beer alone for 3-4 weeks and watch the funkiness fall out of that beer.

Secondary will allow the funkiness to fall out just fine too, but certainly there's no good reason to remove the beer from the yeast cake before the FG is reached. I don't know why amandabab was recommending that.

 

[afr0byte]

I'm aware of the church of Palmer
But I'm talking about a specific strain of yeast I've used extensively for over a decade and and how to avoid the sourness (that I never get)so many people get after using the strain.

Well, he said he doesn't get it if he leaves it in the primary for 3-4 weeks, so apparently your way isn't the only way.

 

[kenais]

I'm drinking a Citra IPA that was fermented with S-04 right now, the keg is almost gone and I haven't noticed any sourness. I mashed this one pretty low and the yeast took it down to 1.010. 1 week in the primary, 2 weeks in the secondary and 2 weeks in the keg carbing. I can't offer any insight other than this yeast worked well for me.

I do prefer the cleaner taste of S-05 though and that is what I typically brew all my IPA/APA with. Both 05 and 04 seem be done in about 4 days, they go pretty crazy. I wouldn't imagine it makes a difference but I rehydrate them while I'm mashing.

 

[TimTrone]

I'm not sure where you got this idea. Sure, it's highly flocculant, so it will flocculate pretty readily. However, it's not true that you have to get it off the yeast and do a long secondary. As long as you pitch enough yeast and prevent any drastic drops in temperature, you should be able to easily get a clean beer from it, without a secondary after a week.

+1. I use 04 for any lower gravity English ale I brew. I always give it 3 weeks in primary, then bottle or keg. No need for a secondary at all if the yeast is treated with care.

 

[thetragichero]

tasted my oatmeal stout after 2 weeks in the bottle (young, i know, but i was trying to get an idea of progress)
sour smell has greatly reduced, and this should be a good beer once it's fully conditioned

 

[hector]

I think the only option I have now is using the Secondary phase after the Primary .

I already brewed 3 Batches using S-04 and always let the Beer sit in the Primary for 3-4 Weeks before bottling .

I did it in different conditions , but all of them ended up with the same damn aftertaste .

Besides , I'm worried about the F.G.

Do you think it's a good Idea to repitch if it gets stuck again at about 1.020 ?!

By my last Batch , I roused the yeast cake 2 times per day for 5 days after it got stuck , but it didn't work .

So I think by arousing the S-04 cake , you just take dead yeast cells up into the solution .

Hector

 

[Cysis]

I used S-04 in a Newcastle clone...I've been looking for this fruity tartness that no other beer seems to have...i just opened a 7day old bottle to check carbonation, and I can't believe it really tastes like Newcastle...I'm still new to Homebrew, but I found this yeast to be perfect for what I wanted...I don't think it's for everything, but I think it makes a great beer...

 

[afr0byte]

+1. I use 04 for any lower gravity English ale I brew. I always give it 3 weeks in primary, then bottle or keg. No need for a secondary at all if the yeast is treated with care.

Well, I personally don't agree with the "leave it at least 3 weeks in the primary" (You may not be advocate that.) either. I just don't agree with amandabab that you have to "get if of the yeast after a week, even if it's not at FG." I usually ended up having my beers in the primary (even with S-04) for 10-14 days.

 

[afr0byte]

I think the only option I have now is using the Secondary phase after the Primary .

I already brewed 3 Batches using S-04 and always let the Beer sit in the Primary for 3-4 Weeks before bottling .

I did it in different conditions , but all of them ended up with the same damn aftertaste .

Besides , I'm worried about the F.G.

Do you think it's a good Idea to repitch if it gets stuck again at about 1.020 ?!

By my last Batch , I aroused the yeast cake 2 times per day for 5 days after it got stuck , but it didn't work .

So I think by arousing the S-04 cake , you just take dead yeast cells up into the solution .

Hector

First: It's rousing, not arousing....arousing is decidedly more sexual. Second, having to repitch isn't normal. If you're aerating properly (or preferably, oxygenating with pure O2), and you pitch enough yeast (1 packet should be enough for most beers up to about 1.060), you shouldn't get stuck at 1.020. This does, however, assume that you're not starting at 1.080 and expecting 1.010, especially with extract. Also, your particular extract could just be not very fermentable. You may need to substitute some table sugar.

EDIT: You should also rehydrate if you're not doing so.

 

[hector]

I used S-04 in a Newcastle clone...I've been looking for this fruity tartness that no other beer seems to have...i just opened a 7day old bottle to check carbonation, and I can't believe it really tastes like Newcastle...

I'd like to say that what I mentioned here as the aftertaste is completely different . I didn't mean the fruity tartness .

My Beer was totally sour . What you taste by my Beer is only sourness and nothing else .

Would you please give me more details about your "Newcastle Clone" .

Fermentation Temperature ?

Only Primary or also Secondary ?

For how long did you keep it before bottling ?

Hector

 

[afr0byte]

I'd like to say that what I mentioned here as the aftertaste is completely different . I didn't mean the fruity tartness .

My Beer was totally sour . What you taste by my Beer is only sourness and nothing else .

Would you please give me more details about your "Newcastle Clone" .

Fermentation Temperature ?

Only Primary or also Secondary ?

For how long did you keep it before bottling ?

Hector

If your beer is "totally sour" that sounds like a lacto infection...or, possibly, a lot of yeast still in suspension

 

[Cysis]

I guess mine wasn't that sour...that doesn't sound good at all...

Rehydrated yeast 15mins@90°
Cooled then pitched @ 72°
Steeped grains for 40mins at 155°
6lb DME - briess light I think
OG - 1.050 @ 72°
FG - 1.012 at time of transfer to secondary
FG - 1.012 at time of bottling
Carbonating right now 8days in 49 bottles

Primary was 3 weeks
Secondary was 3 weeks

Primary temp first 3 days was in my 69° kitchen
- then into a 65° closet
- we got a hot spell in Michigan so it spent 3days in the closet @ 75°
-next 2 weeks in 63° basement

Secondary was in basement @ 63° for 3wks

Temps during primary was all over the scale...I don't think I could repeat it exactly the same in a hundred tries, but the beer is good so far...

 

[hector]

having to repitch isn't normal. If you're aerating properly (or preferably, oxygenating with pure O2), and you pitch enough yeast (1 packet should be enough for most beers up to about 1.060), you shouldn't get stuck at 1.020....

Thanks for reminding my mistake . It's corrected now .

As I said before , I am an Extract brewer ( at least I try to be ) .

My previous Batches were all small Batches . So , I didn't need to use the whole sachet , as it would lead to

other problems due to "Over-pitching" .

I always follow the Instruction given by "Fermentis" to rehydrate this strain .

The O.G. was around 1.050 by the previous batches and I always aerate well before pitching . The Lag time is always 6-7 Hours .

I follow the "Late addition Method" . I add 30% of the DME at the beginning of the Boil and the remaining 70% is added

after 45 minutes to be boiled for the last 15 minutes .

I'm also thinking about adding the remaining 70% at Flame-out to prevent from being caramelized .

Hector

 

[hector]

If your beer is "totally sour" that sounds like a lacto infection...or, possibly, a lot of yeast still in suspension

It's been discussed long in another Thread and the Conclusion was that I'm far away from the Infection , as I described my

sanitizing process and the whole brew day in details .

The Beer is crystal clear in bottles before chilling and there is no ring or any white surface .

Hector

 

[CidCitrus]

I've had a sourness to varying degrees in every brew I've done so far (all extract/partial boils). I think maybe one of them used s-04. The sourness tends to become more pronounced the longer the beer ages. I'm not sure if the tang gets worse or if the other flavors fade enough for this flavor to become more noticeable.

I'm currently trying to troubleshoot it by brewing with different water, doing full boils, doing all grain, and using different fermenters. I did a batch of Apocalypso extract with a full boil and I haven't noticed any of that flavor yet. I'm still waiting on my all grain 90 minute clone, but there was no trace of the flavor during bottling. I'm also waiting on a partigyle I did from the 90 minute mash using only my glass carboy (the others have been in my bucket).

 

[jwible204]

S04 is the only yeast I've used, in well over 100 batches, that I've had any tartness/sour issues with. I did, however, just use it again in BM's Oktoberfast and everything turned out great (no tartness).

 

[thetragichero]

for what it's worth, i'm guessing the sourness was from yeast in solution. after two weeks in the bottle, my oatmeal stout had an 1/8 inch of yeast on the bottom of the bottle

 

[afr0byte]

It's been discussed long in another Thread and the Conclusion was that I'm far away from the Infection , as I described my

sanitizing process and the whole brew day in details .

The Beer is crystal clear in bottles before chilling and there is no ring or any white surface .

Hector

It's possible that you have a lot of magnesium in your water. I've never tasted water with a lot of magnesium, but supposedly it can cause a sour taste in a beer if it's in high concentrations.