Rye IPA - results and revision - feedback requested

[Argentum]

I brewed the following attempt at a red rye IPA a couple months ago:

Grains:
10 pounds 2-row
2 pounds rye
10 oz Carared
6 oz Carapils
4 oz Crystal 80
2 oz debittered black barley
8 oz rice hulls
8 oz flaked rye

I mashed at about 152 for one hour, followed by a 60-minute boil.

Hops:
1 oz Warrior - FWH
.5 oz centennial - FWH
.5 oz Amarillo - FWH
.5 oz centennial - flameout (20 min)
.5 oz Amarillo - flameout (20 min)
1 oz Simcoe - flameout (20 min)
1 oz Willamette- flameout (20 min)

Yeast: WLP001 in a 2 liter starter

Fermented at 64 for two weeks before cold-crashing.

OG was about 1.060, FG was 1.010.

I dry hopped with one ounce each Amarillo, simcoe, willamette and citra.

The result was not bad but the hops did not really come through and the beer tastes a little sweet to me. I had hoped for a good rye and hop punch with a malty backbone and a little sweetness to balance out the spicy/bitter rye-hop flavor.

My hope is that the grain bill and hop schedule needs a tweak but that's it. I'm considering dropping the carared to 4 oz and changing the crystal 80 to 120. Then maybe swapping the barley for roasted rye and upping it to 3 oz. so the bill would be:

10 pounds 2-row
2 pounds rye
4 oz Carared
6 oz Carapils
4 oz Crystal 120
3 oz roasted rye
8 oz rice hulls
8 oz flaked rye

For hops, I'm thinking of doing about shifting 1.5 oz from the first wort hopping and flameout to a fifteen minute addition. Something like:
.5 oz Warrior - FWH
.5 oz centennial - FWH
.5 oz Amarillo - FWH

.5 oz warrior - 15 min
.5 oz simcoe - 15 min
.5 oz willamette - 15 min

.5 oz centennial - flameout (20 min)
.5 oz Amarillo - flameout (20 min)
.5 oz Simcoe - flameout (20 min)
.5 oz Willamette- flameout (20 min)

Doing everything else the same. Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions for the original beer and the proposed changes? Not sure about that warrior. I might just double up on centennial instead.

 

[govner1]

I'd change the yeast to Denny's Favorite

 

[mongoose33]

It's all about our own tastes, of course, so take this with a grain of salt.

I'd get rid of the cara and crystal grain. That's where sweetness is coming from, IMO. I do a Rye with 9# Maris Otter, 3# Rye malt, 6 oz Chocolate Wheat, 4 oz Flaked Rye, and rice hulls. No sweetness. Your recipe is fairly close to mine if you take the cara and crystal out of it. Mine's going to be Rye spicier, but not hugely so.

I mash at 151-152.

And you might try this as your yeast: WL810. Yeah, it's a lager yeast, but ferment at ale temps, between 63 and 65.

The hops will really come through if you do that, IMO, but I have to ask, as I'm not a hop-head so this may just be naivete: why so many hop varieties? With the Rye already in the beer, you're going to get a spiciness; I'm just wondering if your hops will be muddled against the background of the Rye.

 

[Argentum]

It's all about our own tastes, of course, so take this with a grain of salt.

I'd get rid of the cara and crystal grain. That's where sweetness is coming from, IMO. I do a Rye with 9# Maris Otter, 3# Rye malt, 6 oz Chocolate Wheat, 4 oz Flaked Rye, and rice hulls. No sweetness. Your recipe is fairly close to mine if you take the cara and crystal out of it. Mine's going to be Rye spicier, but not hugely so.

I mash at 151-152.

And you might try this as your yeast: WL810. Yeah, it's a lager yeast, but ferment at ale temps, between 63 and 65.

The hops will really come through if you do that, IMO, but I have to ask, as I'm not a hop-head so this may just be naivete: why so many hop varieties? With the Rye already in the beer, you're going to get a spiciness; I'm just wondering if your hops will be muddled against the background of the Rye.

Thanks for the feedback!

I feel like some sweetness would help, but I'd err on the side of exclusion - maybe 4 oz carareed and 4 120? Also hoping for some head retention. I though I needed carapils for that but maybe not?

As for the hops, I'm really not sure what to use. I guess a piney and/or earthy hop character seems like it would be good. Willamette is something I want to use for the overall "theme" of the beer. I love the aroma of willamette but I do not like it as a single hop. I thought about just using simcoe but thought I read it was best paired with Amarillo. Maybe I should just go with warrior for bittering and simcoe and willamette for flavor/aroma?

 

[Argentum]

I'd change the yeast to Denny's Favorite

Thanks! I thought about it but wanted something more flocculant. Have you used? Does it produce clear beers?

 

[slym2none]

Drop all the malts you are using just for colour & switch your 2-row to Red X. It's a gorgeous malt!

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the feedback!

I feel like some sweetness would help, but I'd err on the side of exclusion - maybe 4 oz carareed and 4 120? Also hoping for some head retention. I though I needed carapils for that but maybe not?

As for the hops, I'm really not sure what to use. I guess a piney and/or earthy hop character seems like it would be good. Willamette is something I want to use for the overall "theme" of the beer. I love the aroma of willamette but I do not like it as a single hop. I thought about just using simcoe but thought I read it was best paired with Amarillo. Maybe I should just go with warrior for bittering and simcoe and willamette for flavor/aroma?

As I noted, I'm not a hop-head so I'm not likely to heavily load up my Rye. But what I use is .5 oz. Columbus at 60 min, .5 oz. Columbus at 20 min, and 1 oz. Styrian Celeia at 10 minutes.

I'm not saying a lot of hops is a bad thing for those whose tastes run that way, more that you had (IIRC) four different types, which in combination w/ the Rye, might have muddled into nothing special.

To me the Rye presents in some ways as if it's hoppy--and granted, my recipe has one more pound of Rye malt, and the 4 ounces of flaked rye, so it's going to be more Rye-focused than yours will.

<thinking out loud here> I tend to use Maris Otter a lot, and my Rye has it. It may be that my use of MO would be similar to your adding a little specialty grain to your recipe since you're using basic 2-row. So as I think about this a little more, perhaps some Crystal or Cara might be advantageous. I use 6 ounces of Chocolate Wheat in mine, which helps w/ head retention and turns it a gorgeous dark color.

Here's what that does:

 

[govner1]

Thanks! I thought about it but wanted something more flocculant. Have you used? Does it produce clear beers?

I've used it quite a few times. Especially w/ Rye beers. I've not had an issue w/ clarity, but I secondary most of the time (dry hopping, too) plus I cold crash before kegging.

 

[mongoose33]

Hmmmm....recent Brulosophy exbeeriment by Ray Found....no discernable impact from Carapils.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/28/de...ous-beer-characteristics-exbeeriment-results/

Based on that I'd ditch the carapils from your recipe, but I tend to give more credence to these kinds of exbeeriments.

 

[beergolf]

I'd change the yeast to Denny's Favorite

I agree. For some reason this yeast works great in a rye IPA. I do one and have used different yeasts but Denny's Favorite is always the best. It clears just fine for me.

I like the combo of Centennial and Chinook in rye beers. Great combo.

 

[Argentum]

I agree. For some reason this yeast works great in a rye IPA. I do one and have used different yeasts but Denny's Favorite is always the best. It clears just fine for me.

I like the combo of Centennial and Chinook in rye beers. Great combo.

Sold. I'm using Denny's Favorite next time.

Regarding the hops, my build now includes Chinook, Cascade, and Willamette. I'd really like to keep Willamette and I've repeatedly read that's willamette and Cascade go very well together. It also seems that centennial and Cascade are comparable if distinct so...would willamette, Cascade, centennial and chinook work? Or would willamette, centennial and chinook work better?