running wort through immersion chiller

[Lost]

The purpose of the salt is to allow you to add more ice without freezing your bath. Also, the addition of salt WILL lower the temp of the water, albeit a couple tenths of a degree.

Lost- nice idea on the pump...think I'll borrow it! There has to be a more efficient way of cooling wort while retaining the simplicity/inexpensive characteristics of an IC.

Thanks. I'll post after I try it myself.

As to the salt issue, water won't freeze when you add ice, unless of course it is below freezing outside. Salt allows water to be liquid at below 32f but it doesn't give the water more cooling capacity. 1 lb of ice and water will have the same effect as 1lb of ice, water, and salt but the latter will be all liquid, no ice. It might be colder but it will warm as the wort circulates through the coil. Meanwhile the ice water will stay right at freezing until most of the ice melts. This is because the water will stay at the same temp while undergoing a phase change (from solid to liquid). This is also what happens at boiling temps while the water goes from liquid to gas (remember boiling water won't get hotter than 212 under normal atmospheric pressure)

 

[cwi]

As to the salt issue, water won't freeze when you add ice, unless of course it is below freezing outside.

Ice can freeze water if the ice is cold enough to freeze the water before the ice itself starts melting. Ice can be colder than 32F.

Salt allows water to be liquid at below 32f but it doesn't give the water more cooling capacity. 1 lb of ice and water will have the same effect as 1lb of ice, water, and salt but the latter will be all liquid, no ice. It might be colder but it will warm as the wort circulates through the coil. Meanwhile the ice water will stay right at freezing until most of the ice melts. This is because the water will stay at the same temp while undergoing a phase change (from solid to liquid). This is also what happens at boiling temps while the water goes from liquid to gas (remember boiling water won't get hotter than 212 under normal atmospheric pressure)

Salt isn't magic and can't create heat (or lack of heat) from nothing, so it doesn't increase the total cooling capacity. However, it can reduce the melting point causing a phase change which can lower the slurry temp below that of the ice itself. This provides a higher temperature differential which could be helpful in the "coil in an ice bath" chiller, especially if no agitator is used. For ale pitching temps, using salt is probably overkill. It might be useful for lagers. But, if 32F ice/water slurry isn't getting the job done for you, and you don't want to modify the system, salt may help.

Your analysis assumed equal quantities of ice for salt and no salt baths. There is nothing preventing someone from using a bit more ice, and finishing up with water that is still colder than 32F. If your system needs sub-32F water, that is what you do. It is tough to calculate the exact amount of ice needed anyway, so most people end up with some left over, or if you underestimate, wort that is too hot.

This is why old fashioned ice cream makers use salt. The salt is used to decrease the temp of the slurry well below 32F.

 

[Lost]

That's a cute snarky response and I agree that just because something has been done that way by a lot of other people and for a long time that that's no guarantee that it it's safe.

But on the other hand if it is as dangerous as you make it sound then I think we have had ample opportunity for some empirical evidence of this purpoted health risk to appear.

Look if you're that concerned about your health then you shouldn't be drinking anyway. I don't want to call you out for fear mongering because I think these health risks are real but trivial. I'd wager that a big mac or the second hand smoke in a bar does more damage to your health then the largely or entirely imaginary health risks of copper and brass in brewing.

 

[Lost]

Salt isn't magic and can't create heat (or lack of heat) from nothing, so it doesn't increase the total cooling capacity.

That's my point. There's nothing gained by adding salt unless you need colder than 32f water... Which you don't for our purposes. Except maybe for a lager or for making ice cream, which are valid points.

Again, you can't dump the salt water on the lawn and I wouldn't put it in my washing machine. Plus hose water in the wort, if that happened, may or may not ruin the batch. Salt water in the wort would be disaster. Period. There's no clear reason to salt the chill water and a lot of reasons not to. Plus salt just adds to the cost of the batch, I'd rather spend that money on more ice.

 

[cwi]

That's a cute snarky response

I believe you started it with the "copper cleaning issues is a non-issue" "breweries used copper for ages" response.

But on the other hand if it is as dangerous as you make it sound then I think we have had ample opportunity for some empirical evidence of this purpoted health risk to appear.

I said nothing about whether copper was dangerous, or not.
You, however, did state that it was not, contrary to detailed and cited chemical reasons in this thread why it can be. Your only evidence was that it was used in old breweries. I was just making it apparent that logic of that sort is not sound.

I don't want to call you out for fear mongering because I think these health risks are real but trivial.

A bit passive/agressive there.

I'd wager that a big mac or the second hand smoke in a bar does more damage to your health then the largely or entirely imaginary health risks of copper and brass in brewing.

I would wager a beer- One that I brew and ferment in an entirely copper brewery.
Your logic is strange. Some people avoid second hand smoke and big macs for health reasons, even though the risks may be small, just like some prefer to avoid copper for various reasons. The risk may or may not be small, but it is certainly not non-existent as you try to portray it. The hazards were well outlined by previous posters. Using the cigarette analogy you brought up, your input here would be analogous to the tobacco companies position on the dangers smoking.

What was funnier was that you stated the cleaning issue of copper was a non-issue, then outlined your multi-step cleaning protocol and what dangerous colors to watch out for on copper.

 

[cwi]

That's my point. There's nothing gained by adding salt unless you need colder than 32f water... Which you don't for our purposes. Except maybe for a lager or for making ice cream, which are valid points.

I included some info that was previously stated in your response, mainly for clarity. I also included reasons why someone might choose to use salt to overcome system deficiencies requiring a <32F ice bath. Included was one way to mitigate besides using salt. Avoiding using salt is best, for the reason you cited about handling the waste water, as well as others. There are many ways to modify the process to avoid having to resort to using salt.

 

[Redneck82]

Just a side note, salt isn't always a bad thing...I've added sea salt to several brews (albeit in small quantities). Works great if you're doing a a corona clone (it's pretty good not skunked...)

Went to hardware store today to get some fittings to re-engineer my IC. Should be doing a batch in the next couple of weeks.

My main burner sits about waist high, leaving room for an in-between step between boil kettle and carboy.

I put a hole in a rubbermaid 15 gal tub, which I fed the copper pipe through and sealed. After that soldered a 3/8" barbed fitting for the outlet. I plan on sanitizing using boiling water left over from my sparge water (cleaned with acid solution before brewing, then capped).

On the inlet side I found fittings that will allow me to use my funnel and screen. This should help reduce the amount of hop particales/trub in carboy.

I also plan on using the rest of sparge water to force the rest of the wort through the coil to maximize fermentable volume as well as get an immediate rinse on the inside coil.

Not a perfect system, but should be interesting to see how it works.

 

[mk1271]

so after reading all this bs, is it safe to use a copper counter flow chiller if it is cleaned with oxi clean?