running wort through immersion chiller

[Revvy]

it's called verdigris and it is toxic, you should wash your hands after touching it and it should never be ingested.

Yeah, that's what I was getting it. Thanks for clarifing (this goes to Redneck as well.).

If you have Verdigris on the outside of the chiller, you can take whatever measures are necessary to clean it up, plus I always figured the outside of copper tubing was maybe somehow treated with something to prevent or limit it's formation, as would be the inside of a plate chiller made of copper.

But we couldn't see the inside of the tubing to know if it was simply oxidyzed or verdisgris did indeed form inside it.

 

[Redneck82]

Thanks for clarifying MikeYoung!

One of the reasons I joined...practical application of chemistry to brewing.

Odd note, but has anyone tried soldering their IC to the outside of the brewpot? Obvious disadvantages, but it wouldn't need to be as clean(never direct contact with wort, with a tight fitting lid would allow shaking for aeration/better cooling, would not need to be sterilized, and you could (takes slug of homebrew...burp!) keep a lid on the brew to help prevent the odd fly that had previously landed on a dog turd from trying to taste (contaminate) that tasty, fresh, cool hoppy sweet wort.

Just use non pb solder in case it doesn't work so you don't ruin your IC completely.

Y'all have a good night! (with dreams of yeast hopps water and barely running through their heads...)

 

[djfriesen]

Edit: Nevermind. I wasn't thinking clearly.

 

[LVBen]

Thanks for clarifying MikeYoung!

One of the reasons I joined...practical application of chemistry to brewing.

Odd note, but has anyone tried soldering their IC to the outside of the brewpot? Obvious disadvantages, but it wouldn't need to be as clean(never direct contact with wort, with a tight fitting lid would allow shaking for aeration/better cooling, would not need to be sterilized, and you could (takes slug of homebrew...burp!) keep a lid on the brew to help prevent the odd fly that had previously landed on a dog turd from trying to taste (contaminate) that tasty, fresh, cool hoppy sweet wort.

Just use non pb solder in case it doesn't work so you don't ruin your IC completely.

Y'all have a good night! (with dreams of yeast hopps water and barely running through their heads...)

I can't imagine that would work well. I don't think the metal-to-metal contact would be sufficient enough to cool within any reasonable time.

 

[Lost]

I have the economy chiller from midwest, works ok in a 5 gallon batch about 45 minutes or so from boiling... i just picked up a keggle and plan to do a 10 gallon batch in a few days and will attempt putting the chiller in ice water and gravity feeding the wort through the chiller into a carboy.. has anyone tried this?

I plan on doing pretty much the same thing but with a few important changes.

I'm building a eherms rig and plan to reuse the herms coil as a chiller. Heat the water bath, circulate wort through it to heat the mash. Cool the bath and circulate wort through it to chill before pitching. It's simple and elegant and I see no reason why it would not work.

That said, I would use a pump and continually recirculate the wort through the coil until pitching temp is reached. This means you need a pump. Since you need a pump you probably also should use bigger copper tube so as to not restrict the flow to much - I'm going with 1/2" by 20. The length, for me, is really irrelevant since I will be recirculating through the coil.

I would also begin with tap water in the water bath which is quite warm (about 80 F) in FL in the summer and recirculate until the water bath and wort reach equilibrium or close to it. Then drain and add ice and recirculate some more to get it down to pitching temp. This would minimize water waste and also the quantity of ice you'd have to buy/make. What matters is the temp difference between the wort and the water bath. The difference between 80F and 212F is sufficient enough to do the bulk of the cooling (of course this is only true if you are recirculating).

Your setup, gravity feeding through the coil, requires a longer coil to insure adequate chilling in a single pass. But longer means more difficulty cleaning and slower (or no) flow. How long is right? I honestly don't know. It also requires vigorous stirring of the water bath to maximize single pass cooling. I second the recommendation of drill + paint stirrer (paddle). I would also just use ice. You gain nothing with the rock salt except having salt water everywhere which is corrosive and can't be dumped on the lawn or used in the laundry and would be particularly bad if it somehow made its way into the wort. The salt simply lowers the freezing temp of the water it doesn't give the ice any additional "cooling capacity."

The initial runnings would be the coolest and probably below pitching temp but subsequent runnings would be warmer as the ice melts, water bath temp rises, and temperature difference shrinks. Your hope would be that the temp of the runnings would average out to somewhere around pitching temp.

I think in principle it is a great idea and that's why I'm designing my rig this way. But as you have the setup designed based on spare parts you have on hand I would be hesitant. It may work. It may not. Worse case scenario you pitch this batch warm or let it sit and cool overnight before pitching. Then modify the system (probably with a pump) before trying it again.

As to the copper cleaning issue it is a non issue. Copper has been used in breweries for ages. Patina on the copper is fine and it will be removed by wort and consumed by the yeast. You don't want verdigrass which is different from patina (blue green) but I have never ever seen that on my coils or copper manifold. You can clean with a vinegar soak and I do from time to time, particularly if the manifold hasn't been used in a while. Vinegar is super cheap anyway. I would sanitize by running boiling water through the coil before chilling (or by pumping boiling wort through it).

Look at CFC and plate chillers. This would be easily as sanitary as a CFC chiller and far cleaner than the plate chillers everyone is so enamored with. I shudder to think about what could be trapped in all those little passageways and yet everyone uses them without any apparent issues.

 

[cwilliamsccn]

I decided to just buy 20 more feet of soft copper and solder it to my existing chiller.. now its 45 feet. Should be sufficient.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

There are times that I read about the temperature of other users' tap water and I just have to sit back and thank my lucky stars.

45-50*F Tahoe tap water year-round My crummy 25' IC gets 5.5 gallons from boiling (202.6*F here) to 60*F in about 25 minutes.

 

[subliminalurge]

There are times that I read about the temperature of other users' tap water and I just have to sit back and thank my lucky stars.

45-50*F Tahoe tap water year-round My crummy 25' IC gets 5.5 gallons from boiling (202.6*F here) to 60*F in about 25 minutes.

Yeah, here in Iowa/Illinois we get some brutally cold winters so the water pipes are all buried pretty darn deep. Aside from them not freezing in the winter this brings with it the bonus that the water stays nice and cool even during the blazing hot summer months.

 

[Redneck82]

The purpose of the salt is to allow you to add more ice without freezing your bath. Also, the addition of salt WILL lower the temp of the water, albeit a couple tenths of a degree.

Lost- nice idea on the pump...think I'll borrow it! There has to be a more efficient way of cooling wort while retaining the simplicity/inexpensive characteristics of an IC.

 

[cwi]

As to the copper cleaning issue it is a non issue

Your statement is correct, but only by adding "to me". As in:

As to the copper cleaning issue it is a non issue to me.

Copper has been used in breweries for ages.

That is excellent logic. I assume you prefer using leaded solder also. Better yet, just use lead pipe for all your brewery plumbing. That is an even older and therefore a more proven technology. The symbol for lead, Pb, is even based on its use in ancient plumbing. With that endorsement, how could you go wrong?

Are you aware that virtually all new "copper" brewery equipment is simply a decorative cladding on the outside of stainless vessels?

 

[Lost]

The purpose of the salt is to allow you to add more ice without freezing your bath. Also, the addition of salt WILL lower the temp of the water, albeit a couple tenths of a degree.

Lost- nice idea on the pump...think I'll borrow it! There has to be a more efficient way of cooling wort while retaining the simplicity/inexpensive characteristics of an IC.

Thanks. I'll post after I try it myself.

As to the salt issue, water won't freeze when you add ice, unless of course it is below freezing outside. Salt allows water to be liquid at below 32f but it doesn't give the water more cooling capacity. 1 lb of ice and water will have the same effect as 1lb of ice, water, and salt but the latter will be all liquid, no ice. It might be colder but it will warm as the wort circulates through the coil. Meanwhile the ice water will stay right at freezing until most of the ice melts. This is because the water will stay at the same temp while undergoing a phase change (from solid to liquid). This is also what happens at boiling temps while the water goes from liquid to gas (remember boiling water won't get hotter than 212 under normal atmospheric pressure)

 

[cwi]

As to the salt issue, water won't freeze when you add ice, unless of course it is below freezing outside.

Ice can freeze water if the ice is cold enough to freeze the water before the ice itself starts melting. Ice can be colder than 32F.

Salt allows water to be liquid at below 32f but it doesn't give the water more cooling capacity. 1 lb of ice and water will have the same effect as 1lb of ice, water, and salt but the latter will be all liquid, no ice. It might be colder but it will warm as the wort circulates through the coil. Meanwhile the ice water will stay right at freezing until most of the ice melts. This is because the water will stay at the same temp while undergoing a phase change (from solid to liquid). This is also what happens at boiling temps while the water goes from liquid to gas (remember boiling water won't get hotter than 212 under normal atmospheric pressure)

Salt isn't magic and can't create heat (or lack of heat) from nothing, so it doesn't increase the total cooling capacity. However, it can reduce the melting point causing a phase change which can lower the slurry temp below that of the ice itself. This provides a higher temperature differential which could be helpful in the "coil in an ice bath" chiller, especially if no agitator is used. For ale pitching temps, using salt is probably overkill. It might be useful for lagers. But, if 32F ice/water slurry isn't getting the job done for you, and you don't want to modify the system, salt may help.

Your analysis assumed equal quantities of ice for salt and no salt baths. There is nothing preventing someone from using a bit more ice, and finishing up with water that is still colder than 32F. If your system needs sub-32F water, that is what you do. It is tough to calculate the exact amount of ice needed anyway, so most people end up with some left over, or if you underestimate, wort that is too hot.

This is why old fashioned ice cream makers use salt. The salt is used to decrease the temp of the slurry well below 32F.

 

[Lost]

That's a cute snarky response and I agree that just because something has been done that way by a lot of other people and for a long time that that's no guarantee that it it's safe.

But on the other hand if it is as dangerous as you make it sound then I think we have had ample opportunity for some empirical evidence of this purpoted health risk to appear.

Look if you're that concerned about your health then you shouldn't be drinking anyway. I don't want to call you out for fear mongering because I think these health risks are real but trivial. I'd wager that a big mac or the second hand smoke in a bar does more damage to your health then the largely or entirely imaginary health risks of copper and brass in brewing.

 

[Lost]

Salt isn't magic and can't create heat (or lack of heat) from nothing, so it doesn't increase the total cooling capacity.

That's my point. There's nothing gained by adding salt unless you need colder than 32f water... Which you don't for our purposes. Except maybe for a lager or for making ice cream, which are valid points.

Again, you can't dump the salt water on the lawn and I wouldn't put it in my washing machine. Plus hose water in the wort, if that happened, may or may not ruin the batch. Salt water in the wort would be disaster. Period. There's no clear reason to salt the chill water and a lot of reasons not to. Plus salt just adds to the cost of the batch, I'd rather spend that money on more ice.

 

[cwi]

That's a cute snarky response

I believe you started it with the "copper cleaning issues is a non-issue" "breweries used copper for ages" response.

But on the other hand if it is as dangerous as you make it sound then I think we have had ample opportunity for some empirical evidence of this purpoted health risk to appear.

I said nothing about whether copper was dangerous, or not.
You, however, did state that it was not, contrary to detailed and cited chemical reasons in this thread why it can be. Your only evidence was that it was used in old breweries. I was just making it apparent that logic of that sort is not sound.

I don't want to call you out for fear mongering because I think these health risks are real but trivial.

A bit passive/agressive there.

I'd wager that a big mac or the second hand smoke in a bar does more damage to your health then the largely or entirely imaginary health risks of copper and brass in brewing.

I would wager a beer- One that I brew and ferment in an entirely copper brewery.
Your logic is strange. Some people avoid second hand smoke and big macs for health reasons, even though the risks may be small, just like some prefer to avoid copper for various reasons. The risk may or may not be small, but it is certainly not non-existent as you try to portray it. The hazards were well outlined by previous posters. Using the cigarette analogy you brought up, your input here would be analogous to the tobacco companies position on the dangers smoking.

What was funnier was that you stated the cleaning issue of copper was a non-issue, then outlined your multi-step cleaning protocol and what dangerous colors to watch out for on copper.

 

[cwi]

That's my point. There's nothing gained by adding salt unless you need colder than 32f water... Which you don't for our purposes. Except maybe for a lager or for making ice cream, which are valid points.

I included some info that was previously stated in your response, mainly for clarity. I also included reasons why someone might choose to use salt to overcome system deficiencies requiring a <32F ice bath. Included was one way to mitigate besides using salt. Avoiding using salt is best, for the reason you cited about handling the waste water, as well as others. There are many ways to modify the process to avoid having to resort to using salt.

 

[Redneck82]

Just a side note, salt isn't always a bad thing...I've added sea salt to several brews (albeit in small quantities). Works great if you're doing a a corona clone (it's pretty good not skunked...)

Went to hardware store today to get some fittings to re-engineer my IC. Should be doing a batch in the next couple of weeks.

My main burner sits about waist high, leaving room for an in-between step between boil kettle and carboy.

I put a hole in a rubbermaid 15 gal tub, which I fed the copper pipe through and sealed. After that soldered a 3/8" barbed fitting for the outlet. I plan on sanitizing using boiling water left over from my sparge water (cleaned with acid solution before brewing, then capped).

On the inlet side I found fittings that will allow me to use my funnel and screen. This should help reduce the amount of hop particales/trub in carboy.

I also plan on using the rest of sparge water to force the rest of the wort through the coil to maximize fermentable volume as well as get an immediate rinse on the inside coil.

Not a perfect system, but should be interesting to see how it works.

 

[mk1271]

so after reading all this bs, is it safe to use a copper counter flow chiller if it is cleaned with oxi clean?