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RubberMaid says "NO"!

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Here we go again. When a company uses chemists to design a product, they give them some direction as to how they think the product will, and should be used. Why would they say "come up with a formula for a plastic for a cooler [yes, a COOLER] that will hold COLD liquids, oh and by the way, make it stand up to heat too because homebrewers might want to use it for a mash tun." Somehow I really don't think so. There are already products on the market for holding and dispensing hot liquids, and they are not called "coolers." I really don't think Rubbermaid owes any more of an answer than they are giving, they call it a "cooler" for a reason. That said, it would be nice if they would come out with something that is made for heat. There certainly is a market for it. I also wish they would come up with a plug in cooler that would work with a thermostat when full of water for fermentation temp control, those of us who don't have the space for a chest freezer would find that very useful. Has anyone looked into where the plastic comes from? Could be from Dow chemical.

Awesome post.



And for those wanting IRON CLAD proof that heat + plastic = BAD........who wonder why we would even SPECULATE about harmful chemicals from a COOLER when it is used in the exact OPPOSITE manner it is designed for....

Go get a good long drink from the garden hose, and then use the "search function" available on these here interwebs.

Here is an unreputable news company no one has heard of reporting on it.
.http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-01-29-plastic-chemical_N.htm

Personally, I want more estrogen.......
 
beating_a_dead_horse1.gif


This has gone beyond the level of ridiculousness.....Noone is listenning to each other, those of us who use coolers aren't going to stop, and those of you who are freaked out about it aren't going to change your tune, no matter what we say...so enough, let's all just STFU about this already and go brew how we're f-ing going to brew. You guys can play with your metal pots and zap a gap systems, and we'll use our coolers and this thread can just die....

This isn't even a fun thread to poke fun on anymore.....It's just tired....
 
I wonder if the reported warping and cracking is due to putting very hot water into a cold cooler. If the lining heats up suddenly and expands, I can see why it would buckle - that's the only way it can expand, if the body of the cooler is strong enough to stay in one piece and doesn't stretch. Wouldn't it be better to start with warm water, then drain that and put in hotter water, etc., working up to the final desired temperature? I've just recently built a 10 gallon RM cooler MLT and have only tested with hot water - haven't mashed in it yet. I've tried the procedure above and so far have no problems. This is easy for me to do because I heat the water in a kettle and pump it up to my MLT - I can get the water to 120º, pump it into the cooler, turn off the pump and let it drain back through the pump into the kettle (takes a few minutes to drain), continue heating to 140º, fill and drain, and repeat until I reach the final temperature. I'm hoping this more gentle heating will prevent, or at least minimize the warping. Does anyone else do something like this? Does it work?

I had one where the liner warped and cracked. I did not gradually heat it and it was on occasion exposed to 180f+ liquid. I got maybe 6 or 8 brews out of it before the crack appeared.
 
My this was a fun read.
Is it a bad idea to heat my mash water IN my Rubbermaid cooler over my propane burner?
 
beating_a_dead_horse1.gif


This has gone beyond the level of ridiculousness.....Noone is listenning to each other, those of us who use coolers aren't going to stop, and those of you who are freaked out about it aren't going to change your tune, no matter what we say...so enough, let's all just STFU about this already and go brew how we're f-ing going to brew. You guys can play with your metal pots and zap a gap systems, and we'll use our coolers and this thread can just die....

This isn't even a fun thread to poke fun on anymore.....It's just tired....

Well put.

Also, I'm taking your dead horse .gif
 
We order from Rubbermaid, I'll try and remember to call them in the morning
 
The guy wondered (OP) if there was any reason to worry.

Rather than an "I don't" or "Not IMHO", (which would have been OK) the sh!t storm of brainwashed "I been doin it and I ain't dead" cooler mashers deserved the resulting rash of quotes from this and that source, saying that plastic + heat = BAD.

Like anything, noone likes to think that what they have been doing is wrong, but if noone ever questioned anything, we wouldn't even be brewing.
 
Bubba Keg FTW!

[cue the ominous negative political ad music]

Funkswing says "Bubba Keg FTW!". However, a review of his credentials clearly shows he uses a regular, old, plastic cooler.

http://jonflash.myweb.uga.edu/mashtun.html

[cue thunder and lightning SFX]

So where does Funkswing stand on this issue? His statements say one thing, his record says another.

He may even use adjuncts in his beer and kick puppies.*

[overlay the grim reaper over a photo of his mash tun]

As a poster in this thread, his flip flopping is bad for you, and bad for the homebrewing community.

When you mash, do what you think it right. Vote "no" for Mr. FlipFloppySwing and his so-called "Bubba Keg"

thismessagebroughttoyoubythefriendsofleachingchemicalsintoyourmash

* This may or may not, but probably is the case.

:p
 
JetSmooth - too bad Yesterday was election day! Now my lies don't matter!!!
(I do kick puppies, but mostly kittens....they go farther).

I was meaning to quote the guy who stated the Bubba Keg, which sounds like the winner for this thread. Also, I do expect to see some more DIY SS Mashtun threads soon. You know with left over foam board from keezer projects and scrape-metal SS.

BTW, I think its awesome that you took the time to view my site and then rip me a new one here!
 
JetSmooth - too bad Yesterday was election day! Now my lies don't matter!!!
(I do kick puppies, but mostly kittens....they go farther).

I was meaning to quote the guy who stated the Bubba Keg, which sounds like the winner for this thread. Also, I do expect to see some more DIY SS Mashtun threads soon. You know with left over foam board from keezer projects and scrape-metal SS.

;)

I don't think Bubba Keg makes a keg big enough. I just looked. They have a "deck cooler" that looks like a barrel, but I wonder how well the top seals. And it's pricey.
 
Why would this be an issue? Looks to be no different a fit than a standard box cooler.

I only saw the photo on Amazon. It looked like a very loose flip-top cooler. I like the screw-down on my Rubbermaid. Though I haven't had any experience with the flip open coolers and how well they seal. I know some are great and others aren't. I'd hate to drop $180 or so and find out it's a poor seal.

It's huge, though. Would be great for a barley wine or a few partigyles.
 
The guy wondered (OP) if there was any reason to worry.

Rather than an "I don't" or "Not IMHO", (which would have been OK) the sh!t storm of brainwashed "I been doin it and I ain't dead" cooler mashers deserved the resulting rash of quotes from this and that source, saying that plastic + heat = BAD.

Like anything, noone likes to think that what they have been doing is wrong, but if noone ever questioned anything, we wouldn't even be brewing.

As i immediately regret getting involved, the underlying issue i still see is that there hasn't been concrete evidence for EITHER side of this argument. Not unlike the recent political sh!tslinging, though, no one seems to be open enough to entertain that point.
 
As i immediately regret getting involved, the underlying issue i still see is that there hasn't been concrete evidence for EITHER side of this argument. Not unlike the recent political sh!tslinging, though, no one seems to be open enough to entertain that point.

[ominous music]

Cactusgarret claims that either of the popular opinions is valid. Is he really that independent?

A review of his record shows a very different story.

[overlay of multiple threads]

In his nearly eight-hundred attack threads on this very forum, Cactusgarret has expressed strong opinions on controversial issues like gelatin clarifying, grain prices, and whole leaf versus pellet hops.

In a recent post, he even asserted that Red Dog beer had been discontinued when it is clearly being brewed again.

[overlay of Red Dog can on fire]

Ask yourself, why is Cactusgarret claiming the middle ground on this issue. What does he have to hide?

thismessagebroughttoyoubythecommissiontomakepeopletakesides

;)
 
I've given birth to Cactusgarret's illegitimate love child. :eek:

And I'm a man!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:
 
Customer called with some technical questions:

1) Can it safely hold water at 170 degrees for 1 hour?

2) What type of plastic is it made from?

3) Can he acquire an MSDS sheet on it?

Response from Igloo :
The exterior body of the large beverage coolers are high density polyethylene; they have polyurethane foam inside; and the liners are polypropylene (FDA approved material). Because our coolers are not made from hazardous materials, they are not required by law to have MSDS, therefore we do not have individual MSDS’s for each cooler. You can still use the letter than you attached to explain the MSDS situation, if you wish, as it is still applicable. Thanks.

Hello,

Can you answer the following questions on the Igloo Heavy Duty 10 gallon cooler?

2) What type of plastic is it made from?

3) Can he acquire an MSDS sheet on it?

I attached the MSDS sheet I found on our L drive. Would this go for all of their products? I am not sure how that works so I didn’t know if there is a specific sheet for each item?

Here is the answer to your first question:

I only found the below information on Igloo’s main page—which shows they tested it at 90 degrees, so they cannot confirm the 170 degrees.

Cooler maintains ice for 3 days at 90°F!
 
As i immediately regret getting involved, the underlying issue i still see is that there hasn't been concrete evidence for EITHER side of this argument. Not unlike the recent political sh!tslinging, though, no one seems to be open enough to entertain that point.

Absolutely!

But if someone said that terrorists might kill my daughters at school tomorrow, I would probably keep them home, just to be sure, without definitive evidence.
 
[ominous music]

Cactusgarret claims that either of the popular opinions is valid. Is he really that independent?

A review of his record shows a very different story.

[overlay of multiple threads]

In his nearly eight-hundred attack threads on this very forum, Cactusgarret has expressed strong opinions on controversial issues like gelatin clarifying, grain prices, and whole leaf versus pellet hops.

In a recent post, he even asserted that Red Dog beer had been discontinued when it is clearly being brewed again.

[overlay of Red Dog can on fire]

Ask yourself, why is Cactusgarret claiming the middle ground on this issue. What does he have to hide?

thismessagebroughttoyoubythecommissiontomakepeopletakesides

;)

Well played sir, well played! :mug:
 
Rubbermaid's commercial, NSF rated, Insulated Beverage Container #161001 is made from Polyethelene. The customer service person could not verify LDPE or HDPE. I meant to call earlier to talk to engineering but...
They recommend a maximum of 150 degrees because that is the plastic's tolerance. She did not have any information on leaching of anything.

I did find this interesting: http://www.rcpworksmarter.com/rcp/products/pdf/chem.pdf

I wonder who got to have all that fun.
 
Here's my take:

I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler.

My 2 cents...
 
Here's my take:

I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler.

My 2 cents...

Thank you for your post :mug:
 
northernlad, brewtus... thank you both for your contributions!!

So according to northernlad, Rubbermaid has confirmed the liner is PE. What we don't know is whether it's HDPE or LDPE.

According to Brewtus, HDPE should be suitable for mashing in. LDPE... maybe not.

According to Hex, Rubbermaid said their coolers should not be used for hot liquids above 120 degrees F. Doing some searching around, I found a different thread on this forum where the same question was asked of rubbermaid. Their more detailed response was:

"The water jugs were not designed for hot beverages and we do not recommend using them for hot beverages. However, the FDA approved material used on the interior of the water jugs can handle liquids up to 120°F. We have not tested or verified this - it's strictly based off of the material specs."

So rubbermaid has twice said the liner was good to 120 degrees, based on the material specs. Which is interesting, because:
A) I don't know of any food grade plastic suitable for use as a cooler liner that would have such a low max temp
B) All us cooler users know they can handle 120 all day long,
C) HDPE's max temp is 120 degrees CELSIUS.

I think customer service has celsius & fahrenheit mixed up. I think the max temp is 120 celsius, which points to HDPE. And personally speaking, I'm comfy w/ that.
 
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