RubberMaid says "NO"!

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I have irrefutable evidence that coolers leach chemicals:

Go see a doctor, you have blood in your.......Oh, never mind.

 

[funkswing]

So, Cheesy, do you mash in plastic or not?

 

[JetSmooth]

Bubba Keg FTW!

[cue the ominous negative political ad music]

Funkswing says "Bubba Keg FTW!". However, a review of his credentials clearly shows he uses a regular, old, plastic cooler.

http://jonflash.myweb.uga.edu/mashtun.html

[cue thunder and lightning SFX]

So where does Funkswing stand on this issue? His statements say one thing, his record says another.

He may even use adjuncts in his beer and kick puppies.*

[overlay the grim reaper over a photo of his mash tun]

As a poster in this thread, his flip flopping is bad for you, and bad for the homebrewing community.

When you mash, do what you think it right. Vote "no" for Mr. FlipFloppySwing and his so-called "Bubba Keg"

thismessagebroughttoyoubythefriendsofleachingchemicalsintoyourmash

* This may or may not, but probably is the case.

 

[funkswing]

JetSmooth - too bad Yesterday was election day! Now my lies don't matter!!!
(I do kick puppies, but mostly kittens....they go farther).

I was meaning to quote the guy who stated the Bubba Keg, which sounds like the winner for this thread. Also, I do expect to see some more DIY SS Mashtun threads soon. You know with left over foam board from keezer projects and scrape-metal SS.

BTW, I think its awesome that you took the time to view my site and then rip me a new one here!

 

[JetSmooth]

JetSmooth - too bad Yesterday was election day! Now my lies don't matter!!!
(I do kick puppies, but mostly kittens....they go farther).

I was meaning to quote the guy who stated the Bubba Keg, which sounds like the winner for this thread. Also, I do expect to see some more DIY SS Mashtun threads soon. You know with left over foam board from keezer projects and scrape-metal SS.

I don't think Bubba Keg makes a keg big enough. I just looked. They have a "deck cooler" that looks like a barrel, but I wonder how well the top seals. And it's pricey.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

but I wonder how well the top seals.

Why would this be an issue? Looks to be no different a fit than a standard box cooler.

 

[JetSmooth]

Why would this be an issue? Looks to be no different a fit than a standard box cooler.

I only saw the photo on Amazon. It looked like a very loose flip-top cooler. I like the screw-down on my Rubbermaid. Though I haven't had any experience with the flip open coolers and how well they seal. I know some are great and others aren't. I'd hate to drop $180 or so and find out it's a poor seal.

It's huge, though. Would be great for a barley wine or a few partigyles.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It's huge, though. Would be great for a barley wine or a few partigyles.

Almost 14 gallons. But, like you say, spendy.

 

[cactusgarrett]

The guy wondered (OP) if there was any reason to worry.

Rather than an "I don't" or "Not IMHO", (which would have been OK) the **** storm of brainwashed "I been doin it and I ain't dead" cooler mashers deserved the resulting rash of quotes from this and that source, saying that plastic + heat = BAD.

Like anything, noone likes to think that what they have been doing is wrong, but if noone ever questioned anything, we wouldn't even be brewing.

As i immediately regret getting involved, the underlying issue i still see is that there hasn't been concrete evidence for EITHER side of this argument. Not unlike the recent political sh!tslinging, though, no one seems to be open enough to entertain that point.

 

[JetSmooth]

As i immediately regret getting involved, the underlying issue i still see is that there hasn't been concrete evidence for EITHER side of this argument. Not unlike the recent political sh!tslinging, though, no one seems to be open enough to entertain that point.

[ominous music]

Cactusgarret claims that either of the popular opinions is valid. Is he really that independent?

A review of his record shows a very different story.

[overlay of multiple threads]

In his nearly eight-hundred attack threads on this very forum, Cactusgarret has expressed strong opinions on controversial issues like gelatin clarifying, grain prices, and whole leaf versus pellet hops.

In a recent post, he even asserted that Red Dog beer had been discontinued when it is clearly being brewed again.

[overlay of Red Dog can on fire]

Ask yourself, why is Cactusgarret claiming the middle ground on this issue. What does he have to hide?

thismessagebroughttoyoubythecommissiontomakepeopletakesides

 

[tunoffun]

I've given birth to Cactusgarret's illegitimate love child.

And I'm a man!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hex]

Customer called with some technical questions:

1) Can it safely hold water at 170 degrees for 1 hour?

2) What type of plastic is it made from?

3) Can he acquire an MSDS sheet on it?

Response from Igloo :
The exterior body of the large beverage coolers are high density polyethylene; they have polyurethane foam inside; and the liners are polypropylene (FDA approved material). Because our coolers are not made from hazardous materials, they are not required by law to have MSDS, therefore we do not have individual MSDS’s for each cooler. You can still use the letter than you attached to explain the MSDS situation, if you wish, as it is still applicable. Thanks.

Hello,

Can you answer the following questions on the Igloo Heavy Duty 10 gallon cooler?

2) What type of plastic is it made from?

3) Can he acquire an MSDS sheet on it?

I attached the MSDS sheet I found on our L drive. Would this go for all of their products? I am not sure how that works so I didn’t know if there is a specific sheet for each item?

Here is the answer to your first question:

I only found the below information on Igloo’s main page—which shows they tested it at 90 degrees, so they cannot confirm the 170 degrees.

Cooler maintains ice for 3 days at 90°F!

 

[cheezydemon3]

As i immediately regret getting involved, the underlying issue i still see is that there hasn't been concrete evidence for EITHER side of this argument. Not unlike the recent political sh!tslinging, though, no one seems to be open enough to entertain that point.

Absolutely!

But if someone said that terrorists might kill my daughters at school tomorrow, I would probably keep them home, just to be sure, without definitive evidence.

 

[Shooter]

[ominous music]

Cactusgarret claims that either of the popular opinions is valid. Is he really that independent?

A review of his record shows a very different story.

[overlay of multiple threads]

In his nearly eight-hundred attack threads on this very forum, Cactusgarret has expressed strong opinions on controversial issues like gelatin clarifying, grain prices, and whole leaf versus pellet hops.

In a recent post, he even asserted that Red Dog beer had been discontinued when it is clearly being brewed again.

[overlay of Red Dog can on fire]

Ask yourself, why is Cactusgarret claiming the middle ground on this issue. What does he have to hide?

thismessagebroughttoyoubythecommissiontomakepeopletakesides

Well played sir, well played!

 

[northernlad]

Rubbermaid's commercial, NSF rated, Insulated Beverage Container #161001 is made from Polyethelene. The customer service person could not verify LDPE or HDPE. I meant to call earlier to talk to engineering but...
They recommend a maximum of 150 degrees because that is the plastic's tolerance. She did not have any information on leaching of anything.

I did find this interesting: http://www.rcpworksmarter.com/rcp/products/pdf/chem.pdf

I wonder who got to have all that fun.

 

[brewtus_]

Here's my take:

I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler.

My 2 cents...

 

[bob1852]

Here's my take:

I am a materials engineer who has designed plastics formulations for almost twenty years. I have a BS degree in chemistry and did my MS thesis in the field of polymer science and engineering. I have experience in many different polymer systems (PE, PP, PVC, PUR, PA, EVA, PC, PS, ESBS, PET, EPDM, SBR, CSM, FEP, PTFE, PVDF, ECTFE, just to name a few).

Plastics are generally misunderstood. Plastic compounds are generally composed of the base polymer (i.e. PE, PP, PVC, etc.) and additional additives that further enhance the polymer's physical or chemical properties (i.e. impart flexibility, add flame retardancy, increase impact resistance, etc.). For example, white rigid PVC pipe that we buy in home improvement centers is the same polymer as garden hoses, namely PVC. yet these two items behave very differently in terms of flexibility. This is because an additive called a plasticizer (essentially an organic oil) has been added to the hose to impart flexibility. The plasticizer molecules essentially "fill in" between each of the long chain polymer molecules causing them to slide across each other. Think of a lube on a molecular level. It's important to remember the difference between polymers and compounds. (Note: the lead that is in garden hoses is from a lead salt (lead phthatale or lead sulfate) that is used as a heat stabilizer. It will leach out.)

As far as leaching goes, a food grade polypropylene will not typically contain anything harmful that will leach into the mash at an unacceptable level (true for HDPE as well). The company can not label it as food grade if this was the case (this isn't China where companies can put melamine into dog food without regulation, or lead based paints on toys). The only thing I can think of that might leach into the mash would be a mold release agent that's there to help separate the liner from the mold during it's initial manufacturing process. Probably a food grade mineral oil or paraffinic compound that's easily removed with soap and water. There may also be some type of antioxidant or UV inhibitor to stabilize the polymer from high manufacturing temperatures or sunlight exposure. Again, these would be food grade and not pose a risk at the levels added. Look at some food labels and see how often you find BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene), yet you still eat this. Here's something else to think about: The residual component (terephthalic acid) used to make polyethylene terephthalate (PET) is in every plastic soda bottle because it leaches into the drink, especially the longer a bottle stays on the shelf. This is why a coke tastes different in plastic than glass or a can. Yet PET bottles are food safe.

Warping and cracking of the plastic is most likely due to temperature interactions. This is a physical event, not chemical. It has to do with the crystalinity of the polymer itself. Other things could be that the actual polymer itself could be oxidizing (which is a chemical reaction) over time at high temperatures if NO antioxidant is present. Also consider the melting points of LDPE, HDPE and PP (~100C, 130C and 160C respectively). LDPE softens at about 80C or so and HDPE softens at about 120C or so - meaning that at mashing temperatures, you're probably good with HDPE or PP. One has to remember that if you pour boiling water into a LDPE lined cooler, you could do some damage, but are fine in a HDPE or PP lined cooler.

My 2 cents...

Thank you for your post

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That'd be scientifical enough for me.

 

[arturo7]

Can't wait to see a brewtus post in a Homer bucket thread...

 

[tunoffun]

northernlad, brewtus... thank you both for your contributions!!

So according to northernlad, Rubbermaid has confirmed the liner is PE. What we don't know is whether it's HDPE or LDPE.

According to Brewtus, HDPE should be suitable for mashing in. LDPE... maybe not.

According to Hex, Rubbermaid said their coolers should not be used for hot liquids above 120 degrees F. Doing some searching around, I found a different thread on this forum where the same question was asked of rubbermaid. Their more detailed response was:

"The water jugs were not designed for hot beverages and we do not recommend using them for hot beverages. However, the FDA approved material used on the interior of the water jugs can handle liquids up to 120°F. We have not tested or verified this - it's strictly based off of the material specs."

So rubbermaid has twice said the liner was good to 120 degrees, based on the material specs. Which is interesting, because:
A) I don't know of any food grade plastic suitable for use as a cooler liner that would have such a low max temp
B) All us cooler users know they can handle 120 all day long,
C) HDPE's max temp is 120 degrees CELSIUS.

I think customer service has celsius & fahrenheit mixed up. I think the max temp is 120 celsius, which points to HDPE. And personally speaking, I'm comfy w/ that.

 

[northernlad]

northernlad, brewtus... thank you both for your contributions!!

So according to northernlad, Rubbermaid has confirmed the liner is PE. What we don't know is whether it's HDPE or LDPE.

According to Brewtus, HDPE should be suitable for mashing in. LDPE... maybe not.

According to Hex, Rubbermaid said their coolers should not be used for hot liquids above 120 degrees F. Doing some searching around, I found a different thread on this forum where the same question was asked of rubbermaid. Their more detailed response was:

"The water jugs were not designed for hot beverages and we do not recommend using them for hot beverages. However, the FDA approved material used on the interior of the water jugs can handle liquids up to 120°F. We have not tested or verified this - it's strictly based off of the material specs."

So rubbermaid has twice said the liner was good to 120 degrees, based on the material specs. Which is interesting, because:
A) I don't know of any food grade plastic suitable for use as a cooler liner that would have such a low max temp
B) All us cooler users know they can handle 120 all day long,
C) HDPE's max temp is 120 degrees CELSIUS.

I think customer service has celsius & fahrenheit mixed up. I think the max temp is 120 celsius, which points to HDPE. And personally speaking, I'm comfy w/ that.

I think the temperature max is a little subjective and I do not think the CS has it wrong. I can personally verify that HDPE will fail at some point below 350 degrees (think fryer oil in a pickle bucket). It is malleable at temperatures below that. As I have said before Rubbermaid recommends such a low temperature because, I am sure, at some point in their testing they have encountered failure. They cannot afford to replace their coolers for every cheap bastard who uses them for mashing and finds, like I have, that it can cause physical damage to the plastic.
As a caveat: I understand people have found evidence one way or the other that satisfies what they want to hear on the subject. So, use it if you want to, don't if yer skerrt.
In How to Brew, Palmer states that boiling in aluminum results in a level for the ENTIRE 5 gallon batch equal to one half of one antacid. I am confident that the level of contamination from HDPE from mashing temperatures is within the same tolerance and in MY brewery that is acceptable.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Thank you Brewtus. I feel suffishently edumacated now.

Seriously, thank you for that post.

 

[djt17]

My 2 cents...

That was much more than 2 cents. Thanks

 

[Revvy]

So I didn't understand all the big words, but Brewtus just said it's safe to use, and that the OP is just being a nervous nelly, right?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

So I didn't understand all the big words, but Brewtus just said it's safe to use, and that the OP is just being a nervous nelly, right?

I think Brewtus is a bot and that was just a random post in a random thread.

OR, he stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night and all his "mumbo-jumbo" don't really count.


Obvously I'm kidding... Thanks for the very informative post Brewtus

 

[Hex]

So I didn't understand all the big words, but Brewtus just said it's safe to use, and that the OP is just being a nervous nelly, right?

At least I asked. I'm going to do a little more research, probably FDA, to get definitions of food grades for our situation.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

At least I asked. I'm going to do a little more research, probably FDA, to get definitions of food grades for our situation.

Yup. I gotta hold my hand up and admit I thought it was silly at first, but it was a valid question.

 

[funkswing]

I want to invest in Brewtus' 2 cents, because that value is going waaaaaay up!

I wish I would have stuck through all of my college chemistry classes (not really!), but I worked at a brewpub and homebrewed instead.........

 

[buzzkill]

mashing in my Igloo will bring about the Ewok Holocaust. :rockin:

 

[Revvy]

mashing in my Igloo will bring about the Ewok Holocaust. :rockin:

Last time I tried to mash in an Igloo, this happened,

So I switched to a HOT TUB instead.

*rimshot*

 

[cheezydemon3]

Do I believe that mashing in a cooler leaches dangerous chemicals? YES

If you live and die by FDA maximum safe levels, so many ppm of phucking MERCURY is OK with them.

Do I think that the level of said sh!te drops significantly after the first batch? YES

IF I decided to mash in a cooler, I would first purge it several times by letting HOT water sit in it for an hour or so.

No biggie, right?

With 99% of things within the FDA's "SAFE" zone in this world, spermies are on the decline, and it is the male spermies that are kicking first......

I know that to most of us, a 90% female world with little chance of impregnating any of them has it's own bent appeal, but really, when you think about WHY that is happening, isn't it a little scary? What else is it effecting?

 

[buzzkill]

we had the ice age,stone age,bronz age.....welcome to the petrochemical age. I hear ya,but ... its all around us. . death by beer.

 

[funkswing]

Cheezy needs one of these.

And some xanax.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Got kids FUNK? I am guessing not.

Worrying about warning signs we get now means not having to explain to my kids why I did NOTHING.

Mashing in plastic is NO BIGGIE (see my above post) I guess I would just like people to be more aware of potential problems from, specifically HEAT and PLASTIC.

Unfortunately the very ingredients being discussed here.

 

[Airborneguy]

cheezy, you need to realize that not everyone is going to agree with you on this matter. It's one thing to tell people what you believe, it's another to be a preacher.

 

[tunoffun]

I just contacted US plastics via their online chat application. I've ordered other products from them before, and they carry rubbermaid coolers. My query: I need to know what the inner liner of your rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler is made of - LDPE, HDPE, PP, or other.

After being told to wait while the agent checked, and being 'on hold' for approx 10 minutes, I received the response "It's HDPE". Take it for what it's worth. For all I know they just looked at the bottom of the lid, saw the '2' symbol, and assumed the entire liner was HDPE just like I did the first time I purchased one. Then again, they might actually know for sure.

 

[funkswing]

cheezy - anyone can be afraid of whatever they want. You can worry all day long about what you want. Does that make you better father? Don't care.

You sound like a paranoid android. Simply stating fears, yet having nothing to support your claims. (Please waste your time trying to support your claims, I'm sure your kids will greatly appreciate the wasted time).

But I guess I'm just a screwed up person b/c I watched the little mermaid growing up and Sebastian the crab was my favorite character.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

cheezy - anyone can be afraid of whatever they want. You can worry all day long about what you want. Does that make you better father? Don't care.

You sound like a paranoid android. Simply stating fears, yet having nothing to support your claims.

Not Stephen Colbert fan then? Keep fear alive!!

 

[funkswing]

Fear can licken mir die Ballen.

I'm for sanity!!

 

[nutty_gnome]

IF I decided to mash in a cooler, I would first purge it several times by letting HOT water sit in it for an hour or so.

I would use slightly acidic hot water to mimic the PH of the mash. Maybe even add some kind of mild alcohol as a solvent in there (vodka? rubbing acohol?) for good measure.

But I didn't do this and I bought mine used for 3 bucks and I have NO idea what the previous owner used it for.