Rothaus Tannen Zaepfle clone

[upstream]

Hi all,

I'm looking to make a Rothaus Tannen Zaepfle clone in the not to distant future (see here and here) but I have no idea where to start.

Has anyone tried it or have any suggestions on how to go about it?

Thanks,
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[Oldsock]

Unless you can contact the brewer and get some more info, I'd start by brewing a solid German pilsner recipe (mostly pils malt, probably hallertau hops, although tett/spalt could be there as well), then make adjustments to get it closer and brew again. Cloning pale lagers is very difficult because the differences between them are generally more subtle. At least you know malt/hops/water/yeast are the only ingredients. Make sure you pitch plenty of yeast and ferment/age cool enough.

Hope that helps.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

The malt bill is probably 100% Continental Pils malt or close to it. I wouldn't try to make it with domestic or UK malts. Some reviews of it say that it has a decent head so you might throw some Carapils/Carafoam in there. Other than that maybe a small amount of Vienna or Lt. Munich.

Apparently this has more hop aroma than a typ German Pils and is very balanced regarding bitterness. Noble hops like Oldsock mentioned.

The recipe is likely super simple, the devil is in the details.

 

[upstream]

Thanks for the advice. Guess I have to do some more research...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I would like to join this quest with you. This is one of my friends favorite beers. I have had it a few times.

No idea how to make it. My only memory of the beer was a very clean taste with forward hop flavor that reminded me of pine.

 

[upstream]

I would like to join this quest with you. This is one of my friends favorite beers. I have had it a few times.

No idea how to make it. My only memory of the beer was a very clean taste with forward hop flavor that reminded me of pine.

Excellent! The more the merrier!
I just have to figure out a quick and easy way to get my fermentation / lagering temps down

 

[Hopfen_und_Malz]

hey guys! Anybody figured out how to brew it? This is the beer I was "raised" with and I would love to make it. let me know, thx

 

[EoinMag]

It contains hop extract so you'll need to get your hands on some of that to get the authentic flavour.

 

[cavalier8]

Did anyone brew this? I have not tasted this beer, A friend who been to the brewery wants to make this clone, claims best pils on earth. I have only brewed 3 pils. penn pils clone and 2 hopped pils.

 

[Bassman2003]

To be honest, the hop extract flavor in this beer kind of took away some of the magic for me. I think is just a fine German pils, not earth shattering.

There are so many great German beers without the hop extract flavor to choose from.

 

[lhommedieu]

I've also done a fair amount of research on Tannenzaepfle, but it's internet-based, so take it with a grain of salt. The following link may be instructive, particularly the part that I quoted below.

From http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/pils.html:

"Pils now accounts for almost two-thirds of all beers sold in Germany. The style has many significant regional, north-south, variations. Characteristically, many Pils varieties made in northern Germany have a very strong, zesty, citrus-like, up-front hop-bitterness, in part because the water in northern Germany tends to be fairly hard. Hard water accentuates up-front hop-bitterness in the brewing process. In many parts of southern and southeastern Germany (as well as in the Czech Republic, incidentally) water tends to be moderately to extremely soft. Such water suppresses hop-bitterness. Because of Bavaria’s southern location, Bavarian Pils varieties tend to be more hop-aromatic than hop-pungent. They have a mellow hop-aroma instead of the more aggressive hop-bitterness found in some of the northern German Pils versions.

Some Pils brands especially in the north of Germany may have as many as 45 units of hop bitterness. This is about five times as much as an average American lager in a can. Most Pils, however, have no more than 25 to 35 bittering units, while the traditional Bavarian blond lager, the Helles, by comparison, requires only about 20 units. In a Pils, hop, rather than malt notes are supposed to dominate, while in a Bavarian helles, it is the other way around. Many northern Pils varieties rely in a slightly zesty hop variety called Tettnanger for their up-front assertiveness, while Bavarian-made Pils varieties tend to be more subdued, because of their brewery's preference for Hallertauer, Hersbrucker and Spalter hops. The Bavarian interpretations of the Pils, therefore, are neither too assertive up-front nor too strongly aromatic in the finish. Instead, they have a gentle hop bouquet. In fact, hop bitterness in beer tends to increase the closer the beer is made to the Atlantic Ocean; it tends to decrease in favor of maltiness, the closer the beer is made to the Alps." [emphasis mine]

On a Northern Brewer forum, a poster said that the brewery responded to a request for information about hops, by stating that Hallertauer and Tattnang hops were used. You'd have to compare the clone to the original, but Tannenzaepfle sounds like it might be a southern German pils, with the distinction of having a unique hop aroma. ("Tannenzaepfle" for what it's worth, refers to the shape of the small bottle as it's tipped towards the mouth; it is said to resemble the small pine cones hanging from the pine trees in the region.)

If one wanted to accent hop aroma one might start with a German pils base, with soft water, pilsner malt, Hallertauer hops, and a German lager yeast - and add a fair amount of Hallertauer or Tattnang hops at flame-out. I plan to brew the following recipe using Hallertauer hops at flame-out, and then brew the recipe again and add Tettnang hops at flame out, to see what happens. I suspect that Tattnang hops will be more assertive. This is, however, only after learn how to dial-in a decoction method for brewing Czech pils; decoction brewing is a new method for me.

For a six gallon batch, using a decoction method:

@ 10 lbs. pilsner malt
@ 2.5 oz Hallertauer hops (60 minutes)
@ 1 oz. Hallertauer or Tattnang hops (at flame-out)
White Labs 832 German lager yeast

Lager for at least six months.

 

[Mike Taylor]

Has anyone experimented with these combinations to make a Rothaus clone? Any experiences, good or bad?

 

[ebbelwoi]

There's an interesting thread on hobbybrauer.de about it. Not sure how well Google translate will work on it, but it's worth taking a look at. One person in particular talks about the various things that didn't work: https://hobbybrauer.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16303

One poster quotes Rothaus as saying that all their hops come from the Tettnang and Hallertau regions (without specifying the exact varieties), and that they don't use bittering hops, if I understood correctly.

 

[Mike Taylor]

Thank you

 

[brandonld23]

This is one, if not my favorite German Pilsner. I just stayed at Rothaus for a few days and did the brewery tour. There was no English tour unfortunately but the guide did speak English and would give me some information in English when she had the time.

Hallertuaer and Tettnang are confirmed by the guide. I've read about people saying they use hop extract. I wouldn't be shocked if they did, but the signs in the brewery state they use pellets and also show leaf.

Also from the signs they use Best Malz malts, pislner malt in this case. The signs seem to suggest 100% pilsner malt (just an assumption).

I tried asking the guide what if and what they used for a decoction schedule... did not get an answer. Unfortunately, language barrier seemed to get in the way.

Some pics for other geeks out there like myself.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Thanks for posting photos! I love this beer, drank it frequently while living in B-W but we never visited the brewery.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for posting the cool pics!

 

[Gritsak]

For anyone trying to do a clone, here is some more info I got from testing a de-gassed sample

Fg is around 1.007, which would make the og 1.046.

Final beer ph is 4.2.

Hope that helps with the quest! It’s a fantastic beer.

 

[Jayjay1976]

For anyone trying to do a clone, here is some more info I got from testing a de-gassed sample

Fg is around 1.007, which would make the og 1.046.

Final beer ph is 4.2.

Hope that helps with the quest! It’s a fantastic beer.

THANK YOU for collecting and sharing this critical data!

 

[Bilsch]

The recipe is likely super simple, the devil is in the details.

Yes exactly. Although important it's not going to be about the ingredients or water composition but instead the process. Sadly duplicating these kind of beers is very difficult to do and I wish you all the luck.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Yes exactly. Although important it's not going to be about the ingredients or water composition but instead the process. Sadly duplicating these kind of beers is very difficult to do and I wish you all the luck.

I've done a fair bit of reading on sauergüt, and how really serious American breweries will employ a reactor to have a steady supply on hand, that it is a unique ingredient available without effort only to those breweries who brew the same styles endlessly; and after having tasted a bunch of German pilsners fresh from the brewery, I'm 95% sure that sauergüt is one of the key components to recreating the classic German flavor. It is a hard to describe and structured but cooked sour profile not too far from a kettle sour but bringing a hearty cereal, animal-feed level of graininess that will be immediately familiar to anyone who has spent any time on a pork or poultry farm.

In my own personal experience, the aroma of a brewery-fresh pint of German lager takes me back to my aunt and uncle's poultry farm; the powerful aroma of fresh stacked hay and cracked corn feed from the silo made the air so thick and sweet you could practically taste it on a late July evening.

 

[monkeymath]

For anyone trying to do a clone, here is some more info I got from testing a de-gassed sample

Fg is around 1.007, which would make the og 1.046.

Final beer ph is 4.2.

Hope that helps with the quest! It’s a fantastic beer.

Just for the record, their website lists a Stammwürze of 12.3° plato, which translates to an OG of 1.050. Given the alcohol content of 5.1%, this implies the final gravity must be about 2.9° plato (or 1.011 SG).
The relatively low attenuation of only 76% gives Tannenzäpfle the pleasing malty sweetness which is often attributed to Southern German pilsners.

 

[Bilsch]

Just for the record, their website lists a Stammwürze of 12.3° plato, which translates to an OG of 1.050. Given the alcohol content of 5.1%, this implies the final gravity must be about 2.9° plato (or 1.011 SG).

It’s measured final gravity is 1.0085 for an apparent attenuation of ~82%.

Malt flavors are actually muddied in poorly attenuated beers. Maltotriose does not taste malty.

 

[monkeymath]

It’s measured final gravity is 1.0085 for an apparent attenuation of ~82%.

Malt flavors are actually muddied in poorly attenuated beers. Maltotriose does not taste malty.

I cannot reconcile that measurement with the data provided by the Rothaus website. At that final gravity, the abv would be at least 5.4%. unless all brewing calculators I consulted are crap.


Edit: just to clarify, I'm not saying the increased residual extract gave it that sweetness. But if you're going to brew a 5% beer, then reduced attenuation allows for a higher Stammwürze/OG, and that contributes to a stronger perception of malty sweetness.
Jever, for example, is a bit more highly attenuated with a StW of 11.3° plato and 4.9% abv. So the alcohol content is nearly the same, but in comparison, Tannenzäpfle has one more degree plato. And I think you can taste that.

 

[Gritsak]

I cannot reconcile that measurement with the data provided by the Rothaus website. At that final gravity, the abv would be at least 5.4%. unless all brewing calculators I consulted are crap.

All I can say is the hydrometer I used was checked for calibration with distilled water and the degassed sample at 65 degrees read on the high side of 1.007, so 1.008 is reasonable. I trust what I see in front of me more than what I read on a website.

 

[monkeymath]

All I can say is the hydrometer I used was checked for calibration with distilled water and the degassed sample at 65 degrees read on the high side of 1.007, so 1.008 is reasonable. I trust what I see in front of me more than what I read on a website.

Reading zero in distilled water is not exactly the same as calibrated, is it? It could be off by a multiplicative factor.

You're free to trust whatever you want. For myself, I trust the measurements performed by the brewery producing the beer "more than what I read on a homebrew forum" (just to cheekily rephrase your statement). I guess everyone's free to make up their minds themselves - or perform a measurement of their own.

 

[pvtpublic]

So any updates on this one? Anyone try a clone yet?