Roselare - 2 ways

[Edcculus]

We covered Sour Beer in my BJCP class last night. I had the fortune of tasting 2 different Flanders Reds brewed slightly differently, both using the Wyeast Roselare Blend.

Flanders Red #1 (Roselare only)

This beer was just over 2 years old. The brewer used a pretty traditional Flanders Red grist as far as I remember. He only pitched the Roselare Blend. He did not use a dowel or any other method to provide oxygen to the acetobacter or other bugs. It was bottle conditioned. The beer exhibited a huge lactic sourness. No acetic was detected. It was overall fairly "clean" for a wild beer. The high carbonation could have contributed to this. There was little sweetness to back up the lactic sourness. Overall, I liked the beer, but it was a little one dimensional.

Flanders Red #2 (Wyeast 1056 + Roselare)

This beer was close to 3 years old. The brewer also used a fairly traditional grist, but said he used a good bit of crystal. Probably more than you would ever want in a normal beer. Sorry, don't know exact amounts. It had to have been a lot, because he said the 1056 only got it down to 1.030. From there, he pitched the Roselare. This brewer did use an oak rod to provide oxygen to the acetobacter. It was served from a growler, so I assume he had it in a keg. I would describe this beer as tasting like Duchesse de Bourgogne. It had a very nice lactic sourness backed up by a bit of acetic character. It was a beautiful deep red with hints of cherry (no fruit was used). This beer was a little sweeter than the first, which balanced the sourness.



I'm sure a lot of this is known already. I just wanted to share my experience of tasting two very similar beers fermented with the same yeast in ways that completely changed the character. If anyone is interested, I'll try to get more detailed notes from both brewers.

 

[cellardoor]

Thanks for the information. I am currently doing the same thing myself.

I just bottled a Flanders Red that has been in the primary for 13 months. It was done with 1056 for a month then but WLP655 for 12 months.

Next week I'm brewing the same recipe but using the slurry from the first beer so it will be some 1056 and some bugs. I am very anxious for the results in another year.

The beer i just bottled so far has a taste profile similar to the Duchesse. I did not provide a wood dowel so the vinegar character is low in what I've tasted. I haven't decided whether or not to dowel the batch I will be brewing or not.

 

[Edcculus]

I rather liked the second version with the dowel. The brewer said when he does it again, he is going to lessen the time he exposes it to oxygen as he thought it displayed too much acetic character. IMO, the vinegar makes it interesting, but a lot less drinkable. A more acetic version would be a great apertief, or drunk in small quantities.

 

[arturo7]

U R my hero right now

at least until I can do a sampling of a couple casks of flanderses, much less try to make one

 

[babalu87]

Flanders Red #2 (Wyeast 1056 + Roselare)

This beer was close to 3 years old. The brewer also used a fairly traditional grist, but said he used a good bit of crystal. Probably more than you would ever want in a normal beer. Sorry, don't know exact amounts. It had to have been a lot, because he said the 1056 only got it down to 1.030. From there, he pitched the Roselare. This brewer did use an oak rod to provide oxygen to the acetobacter. It was served from a growler, so I assume he had it in a keg. I would describe this beer as tasting like Duchesse de Bourgogne. It had a very nice lactic sourness backed up by a bit of acetic character. It was a beautiful deep red with hints of cherry (no fruit was used). This beer was a little sweeter than the first, which balanced the sourness.

JIMP

I have one with the oak peg that I did almost the exact same thing with (racked at 1.028)
Its about a year away from being ready

 

[Ryan_PA]

I have 4 different flanders styled beers going now, all with the oak dowel. My thinking is to leave it with the dowel the whole time. I can always blend to lessen the acidic flavors, but I cannot blend up to the sourness. That said, I am a fan of the overtly sour beers, so if there is any blending at the time I bottle, it will be either very subtle, or very required.

 

[Edcculus]

From what it seemed, more exposure to oxygen via oak dowel will up the vinegary character. If you wan't really tart and less vinegar, maybe lessen the time you use the dowel. You will still get sour with no dowel. It will be mainly lactic though. I claim no personal experience, but it seems like pretty good advice seeing the character of both of these beers side by side.

 

[jds]

Thanks for the feedback. I've got a Flanders going, fermented 30 days with Pacman, then pitched with Roselare and doweled. I'd guess I'm a year out, although I'll probably allow myself to taste it just to see how it's going, sometime in August or September.

I like the idea of tasting it, then swapping the dowel for a check valve or airlock if it's developing a lot of acetic character.

 

[Munsoned]

I have one going using version 1, except I also added a bit of Notty at the pitch too--no particular reason--just because I felt like it. No dowel, glass carboy.

From the sample I pulled about a week ago, mine is definitely sour (it's now 177 days old). Unfortunately, my palette is not tuned enough to know if that sourness is lactic or acetic. And, the sample wasn't big enough for me to discern how complex it is or not. To me, all I could tell was that it's "good."

 

[Edcculus]

Does it taste more like a lemonade type sour, or like vinegar? Lactic is more the face puckering type of sour. Acetic is vinegar. If you aren't providing a lot of oxygen, I'd venture to say its lactic.

 

[ryane]

Lactic is a bit more lemony and puckering type of sour, whereas the acetic has a bit rougher edge and stings the nose when you smell it

 

[Saccharomyces]

I'm using plastic barrels for a 100 day primary with Roeselare only. After primary I am splitting between barrel aging and keg aging and repitching the cake into subsequent batches. The goal is to get about 35 gallons of varying degrees of sourness to blend into the final product. So far the first pitch is only mildly sour but has developed a wonderful Brett Lambicus nose and cherry flavor. I'm hoping the second or third repitch will get to really farking sour after about a year.

Based on sampling of my first batch I think I upped the crystal a bit in the second batch, and am thinking of doubling the aromatic in the third.

 

[ryane]

So far the first pitch is only mildly sour but has developed a wonderful Brett Lambicus nose and cherry flavor. I'm hoping the second or third repitch will get to really farking sour after about a year.

Thats interesting, all Ive been able to get is the cherry nose, and the brett flavor, Ive tried differernt ferm temps, varying levels of unfermentables etc

 

[wetherel]

I let the lacto live on, and then I encourage its growth by keeping the ABV <6% and not adding any hops until the sourness has developed. Some of my sours are getting almost too sour.