RIS Recipe critique

[DuckiesRevenge]

Hi all, I've been off HBT for a little bit but I'm glad to be back at it. I've got an RIS that I've been thinking if making but I wanted to run it past some other eyes to get a gut check from others. I'm not sure if the hips are the right choice but I think they might work well together???

Here it is:

Winter 2014 RIS



Recipe specifics:



Style: Imperial Stout

Batch size: 5.2 gal

Boil volume: 6.5 gal

OG: 1.095

FG: 1.024

Bitterness (IBU): 75.6

Color (SRM): 55.3

ABV: 9.4%



Grain/Sugars:



12.00 lb Two-row (US), 55.8%

5.00 lb Weyermann Dark Munich, 23.3%

1.00 lb CaraMunich, 4.7%

1.00 lb Roasted Barley, 4.7%

0.50 lb Biscuit (Belgian), 2.3%

0.50 lb Crystal 80L, 2.3%

0.50 lb Crystal 60L, 2.3%

0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (US), 2.3%

0.25 lb Black Patent (US), 1.2%

0.25 lb Crystal 120L, 1.2%



Hops:



2.00 oz Chinook (AA 11.5%, Pellet) 60 min, 60.4 IBU

1.00 oz Kent Golding (AA 5.1%, Pellet) 30 min, 10.3 IBU

1.00 oz Kent Golding (AA 5.1%, Pellet) 10 min, 4.9 IBU



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And I was thinking of fermenting with London ale III from wyeast.

Thoughts?

 

[sptaylor70]

I tend to regard Chinook as harsh in its bittering, and might choose Bullion, Challenger, Cluster, or Galena, instead. But that's not more than personal preference.

Have you used 1318 London 3 in an RIS before? I ask because the Wyeast description makes its flavor contribution sound more subtle than you might prefer (I have not used this yeast before, so I have no firsthand knowledge). But then, looking at several RIS recipes, the yeast choices are all over the map.

This looks good. Post your result.

 

[DSorenson]

You are using a lot of specialty malts. That's not always a bad thing, but one of the greatest flaws I notice in homebrews is when the brewer (in his/her excitement) uses the kitchen sink method. In my experience, beers of almost any variety should be at least 70% base malt. For VMO beers, some type of vienna or munich is considered base, and wheat and roggen, the wheat and rye are considered base.

Just a thought to consider, I've never once had a beer I've made and thought "man, this needs more specialty malts", but I've definitely said "I wish I had used .25 lbs chocolate instead of a half pound".

 

[tootal]

I agree. The basic rules on most beers is at least 70% base malt except on stouts, then it's a minumum of 60% and that's streching it.

Might want to back off on the Dark Munich and skip the 80L crystal.

The 120L and chocolate will really pop the chocolate flavor, I like that.

I'd throw the black patent in during the last 10 minutes of the mash so you don't get any astringency.

Just work it out so you have more that 60% base malt.

I tried to make an Imperial Oatmeal Cream Stout. It was lousy so we distilled it! We only had 53% base malt.

Magnum is a great hop and we only use it at 60 minutes to balance the beer.
It took a best of show for what it's worth.

 

[dcp27]

I would agree on changing the bittering hop from chinook, but the rest looks fine. dark munich is definitely a base malt so theres no worries about a lack of base. over 2#s of crystal is a lot, I'd probably dump the C60, but it should be OK. 1318 is a fantastic choice for a RIS

 

[JKaranka]

You have ten different types of malt and lots of crystal. I like RIS fairly dry so I'd drop all the crystals and stick to pale / Munich / dark stuff. I'd consider #2 of flaked corn to bump abv without making it too thick. (My personal ris are more pale / brown / black / source of sugar type.)

 

[DSorenson]

dcp27

I don't regard munich or vienna malts as base malts when a style of beer is considered where that is not a common flavor contributor. You may be correct that dark munich can be used as a base malt if it is anything like it's relative pale munich. In an RIS I would consider this a specialty malt because I don't believe it or it's flavor contribution are typically associated with that style.

I don't mean to sound picky, but it seems like the OP is looking for solid advice to help him turn out a good RIS the first time. In terms of sure-fire results (if there is such a thing in brewing), I would consider the mantra "keep it simple, stupid!". Of course now that I'm rereading this post it is at risk of sounding judgmental, though I hope the spirit of good will is not lost.

I offer some information from "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels. Pg. 314, table 25.8
His data is based on second round national homebrew competition entries.
Average Percentage of Grains in Addition to Roast Barley Used in Stout Recipes
Homebrew: 4% black, 4% chocolate, 9% crystal

Op is considering using:
10.5% various cara malts
4.6% roasted malts (biscuit and chocolate)
1.2% black patent

in addition to:
4.7% roasted barley
23.3% dark munich

Lets keep in mind that these are percentages. OP is going to be using almost twice what most people would use in an average strength beer for flavor contributions. The way I "imperialize" a beer is to start with a normal beer I like and then increase the pale malt until the desired original gravity is achieved. Pale malt doesn't challenge the major flavor contributors to a beer and provides fermentable sugars. pound/volume, you will notice that using the same quantity of specialty grains in a RIS as you would in a 'normal' stout and increasing the pale malt will give you the results you are likely seeking.

This is not to say that OP could not produce a great beer with the current recipe. I have a friend who takes a similar approach and every once in a while knocks my socks off. The flip side is he has had some expensive drain pours.

 

[dcp27]

dark munich is exactly like pale munich, but tastier, its only 10L so its not like its vastly different. I'm not sure how you would think that a malt that's rich, malty, sweet, & toasty doesnt contribute flavors that would normally be associated with a RIS. yes 5#s is a bit heftier than you would normally see in a RIS, but its not outlandish and as the OP put that much in, I'm guessing a richer, maltier version is what is after, in which case there's certainly nothing wrong with it. as someone who recently made a great RIS with 4#s of vienna & 3#s of munich, I can say from experience that it's certainly not going to be a problem.

 

[DuckiesRevenge]

Hey all,
Thanks for the feedback. I think the only reason that I put in Chinook was because it was one that came to mind. I think Magnum will likely be a better choice.

To explain some of my thoughts, first the yeast choice was because that's what I have on hand, plus it has pretty much become my house strain for ALL stouts. It is fantastic. Plus it can handle a lot. (I got a 12% barley wine out of it before).

As far as the grain is concerned, I will probably lower the amount of Munich a bit. Maybe down to 4# or so. I have read many places that it gives a good malty backbone. Ultimately what I am hoping is that I can get a RIS to chew on and that is not very sweet (two contradictory things I know, but I'm hoping a good base of malty grains with unfermentable adjuncts, combined with a 90min 151deg mash will get close to what I want). So I think that dropping one of the crystals will be good. Probably keeping the 80L??

The caramunich I'm not completely sure about. I threw it in there on a whim (probably a little bit from the "everything including the kitchen sink" approach). I've never used it and maybe I can just replace that with basemalt, or torrified wheat or something to that nature.

Also can anyone explain what would be the primary difference between black patent and roasted barley? I have never used either. For any of my Stouts I have only used chocolate malt, pale chocolate malt and sometimes brown malt.

 

[solbes]

I prefer roasted barley to black patent because its much more forgiving. Go too far with BP and you have a sort of aftertaste reminiscent of ashes. I don't think you added too much, especially if you add it late to the mash as suggested above.

You could drop the Munich down to a couple of pounds if you switched base malts to something like Maris Otter that has a deeper malt flavor profile. I love me some MO in RIS and Barelywine.

I'd maybe drop out one of the overlapping medium crystal malts as you will struggle to get down to your FG anyway. Pitch a TON of yeast for this bad boy for an expedient ferment before the ethanol rises too much.

And don't go any lower on IBU's. The bitterness sounds high, but you want it there to balance the sweet finish. Also bitterness will fade as you age your beer (want to keep this one around for a year or three).

 

[tootal]

Black patent is mostly used for color and some roastiness but for roastiness I prefer roasted barley. I quit using BP altogether in my stouts. They are dark enough! Dumping the 60L will make it less sweet so if that's what you want then good call. The 80L won't add as much.

 

[DSorenson]

You can think of black patent as a malted, super roasted barley. It's color ratings are between 500 and 700 lovibond. If used in significant quantities it can yield an acrid bitterness to the beer. Think of that dry, burned bitterness you get out of some commercial stouts. It contributes a large amount of color in small quantities and therefor helps head retention. (high kilned malts and grains tend to kill head retention).

Roasted barley is the heart and soul of the classic stout character. Some believe that this is the ingredient that typically separates stouts from porters. It's lovibond rating is usually 300 to 650. It is unmalted, raw barley that is sent to the roasting drum. It is known for that coffee-like quality.

Don't be afraid to have a higher final gravity: stouts traditionally do. It helps to balance the roasty/bitter characteristics of the specialty malts.

 

[DSorenson]

And don't go any lower on IBU's. The bitterness sounds high, but you want it there to balance the sweet finish. Also bitterness will fade as you age your beer (want to keep this one around for a year or three).

Sage advice concerning aging this puppy. I love that idea. However read "Vintage Beers" by Patrick Dawson if you think this beer will last longer than a year. You'll find out that IBUs are contributed by alpha acids which when oxidized, as always happens in an aging beer, turn into that wet cardboard flavor we all know and hate.

If you want to age this beer a long time and have the best chance for a good out come, check out high beta acid, low alpha acid hops. IBUs due to alpha acids change over time and fade away, but the tannin-like bitterness due to undissolved beta acids stay forever and change into very nuanced favors that are desirable.

Here a higher final gravity is also known for providing a substantial body to the beer, because over time (for reasons unknown to me) the body of an aging beer becomes thinner.

 

[JKaranka]

Traditionally both porter and stout used similar grists: pale, brown, black malt. Roast barley didn't appear until these styles were in decline after the free mash tun act passed (1880s). Prior to that all UK beer had to use malted grains (and sugar). Stouts are just strong porters but I guess modern brewers make porters sweeter.

 

[dcp27]

Sage advice concerning aging this puppy. I love that idea. However read "Vintage Beers" by Patrick Dawson if you think this beer will last longer than a year. You'll find out that IBUs are contributed by alpha acids which when oxidized, as always happens in an aging beer, turn into that wet cardboard flavor we all know and hate.

wow i guess i should throw out all my aging bigfoots then. there are many things that go into oxidation process, alpha acids are not the biggest issue. you're nuts if you think this beer will have any trouble aging a year (given proper handling)

 

[DSorenson]

wow i guess i should throw out all my aging bigfoots then. there are many things that go into oxidation process, alpha acids are not the biggest issue. you're nuts if you think this beer will have any trouble aging a year (given proper handling)

The bigfoot is a notable exception to this. Patrick Dawson has notes from a 10 year vertical tasting. Cascade is one of the main contributors, which is fairly high in the beta to alpha ratio compared to other American varieties. And you are right- proper handling is a big deal there.

One of the sad things he mentions is that the cardboard flavor does eventually become overwhelming. Even the bigfoot isn't impervious.

I highly recommending reading that book, especially if you have your own vertical to verify or argue his claims.

Haha, cheers dcp27, we can't seem to agree on anything!

Oh, and just to elaborate, I don't think you'll have a ruined beer after a year using high alpha hops and high ibus, I am just putting out the information I've learned on the subject. It's more of a cautionary thing if you are planning on aging this beer past a year.

 

[DuckiesRevenge]

So I switched around the recipe and I think I'm going to pick up the ingredients tonight. I changed out one of the magnum hops for 2oz for glacier since that seems to do well in stouts and has high beta acids. I'm getting pretty excited for this one. Thanks for all of the feedback it's always good to bounce ideas off of others.

Winter 2014 RIS



Recipe specifics:



Style: Imperial Stout

Batch size: 5.2 gal

Boil volume: 6.5 gal

OG: 1.094

FG: 1.024

Bitterness (IBU): 77.4

Color (SRM): 56.0

ABV: 9.3%



Grain/Sugars:



13.00 lb Two-row (US), 61.2%

4.00 lb Weyermann Dark Munich, 18.8%

1.00 lb CaraMunich, 4.7%

1.00 lb Roasted Barley, 4.7%

0.50 lb Biscuit (Belgian), 2.4%

0.50 lb Crystal 80L, 2.4%

0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (US), 2.4%

0.25 lb Black Patent (US), 1.2%

0.25 lb Crystal 120L, 1.2%

0.25 lb Special "B" (Belgian), 1.2%



Hops:



2.00 oz Glacier (AA 5.5%, Pellet) 75 min, 30.4 IBU

1.00 oz Magnum (AA 12.0%, Pellet) 60 min, 31.7 IBU

1.00 oz Kent Golding (AA 5.1%, Pellet) 30 min, 10.4 IBU

1.00 oz Kent Golding (AA 5.1%, Pellet) 10 min, 4.9 IBU



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[DSorenson]

Looks interesting, I wish I could try it!

Happy Brewing!

 

[novahokie09]

There's not enough roast nor bitterness in this recipe for a RIS.

Also, consider going with a Marris Otter/Golden Promise base malt in place of the 2-row to kick up the malt richness.

Edit: I'd also consider adding adjuncts to increase the body, flaked barley/rye or even wheat come to mind.

 

[solbes]

Guess I disagree. 1 lb of RB, .5 lb of chocolate, and .25 lb of late addition BP will give it plenty of roast IMO. I added flaked oatmeal to mine (.5 lb?) and it did add a level of smoothness to it.

 

[DuckiesRevenge]

So the reason that I went with the 2-row is that I have read that others have used MO in their RIS and they do not notice the MO since it gets blended into the other flavors of the beer (since there is so much else going on in there). Especially with the Munich supporting the malty portion of the beer.

As an update, I brewed this on Sunday, ended up with 1.090 OG so I was happy with that. Added bonus is that I got a 1.048 OG stout out of the second runnings (only 3 gallons but that's 3 gallons more than I was expecting). Also, it tastes AMAZING! Nice bitterness for the support of the beer, chocolate/caremel, slight fruitiness and some coffee notes on the back end. I'm hoping that it dries out a fair bit so that more of the roasty notes will shine through. If it doesn't I think I will still be happy!

 

[novahokie09]

1.090 on first runnings is very impressive.

Several people use the munich/2-row combo to approximate MO. However, I get a lot of sweetness from Munich/2-row that doesn't match what I get from MO...YMMV.