RIS - no roasted barley, high choc + BP

[Gadjobrinus]

I could use some feedback on this. The original recipe I once wrote and used for imperial stout has been lost to too many moves. I don't recall much about the malt bill and only recall my use of Northdown, which I like generally in strong dark ales.

So, starting at a base, in this case, given by Terry Foster in his book on Porters and Stouts. I added in some dark crystal at the expense of some maris otter but otherwise, it's pretty much his, though I'm also subbing in some de-bittered for his black patent. Mostly curious on the absence of roast barley, and the high % of black malt + chocolate (I seem to recall keeping the total close to 5-6%, and that was across black-chocolate-roasted), as well as the total roasted altogether of 20%. I tend to like debittered black - e.g., as a colorant in pales - but do like the acrid bite in porters and stouts so usually will do some combination of BP, or BP and debittered in darker ales. For this RIS, it's 3:2 de-bittered to black:

12 gallons

MO - 36# 74.2%
C80 - .5# - 1%
C120 - 2# 4.1%
Brown Malt - 5# - 10.3%
BP - 1# - 2.1%
Dingeman's De-bittered black: 1.5#, 3.1%
Chocolate 475 - 2.5# - 5.2%

Challenger (90 and 30 min.) and Northdown (60 min) for bittering; Bramling Cross at 5 and hopstand/WP, EKG at hopstand/WP. No dry hopping.

Yeast: I have on slant Black Sheep/Yorkshire yeast. I could try it with this yeast and rouse vigorously, observe the fermentation curve of this yeast on this strong a beer; or bring in something like a London Ale.

Single infusion at 150 (may also do a no-sparge version) x 60 minutes/conversion positive.

OG=1.105
FG=1.018
IBU=81.2
ABV: 11.6%
SRM=69.9 (way exceeds BJCP, which tops out at 48) (! Easily the darkest beer I will ever have brewed - and maybe askew....)

PS: Chops go to Northern_Brewer for turning me on to Bramling Cross, as I've never used it and am eager to try (I think his exuberance for BC might be equal to my exuberance, at the time, for Northdown in all things dark and strong; "Baked dark fruit," like a well-baked plum tart, for me).

In terms of Bramling, I'm only coming across 2016 hops, "frozen and kept in top condition" as described by one vendor, however. I don't know that I've ever used hops this old - though I probably have. Anyone have thoughts on this, using hops stored frozen for a year?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Burp.

 

[chickypad]

I frequently use black patent 1:1 sub for roast barley in stouts, I think it's actually a bit of a smoother roast and I've never experienced the dreaded "charcoal" taste everyone talks about. If you're subbing some out for debittered though I just wonder if it's going to be enough roast.

 

[snowtiger1987]

My settled upon recipe uses equal amounts of chocolate malt and roasted barley. I found that when the chocolate malt was more and the roasted barley was less it came out too "chocolatey" and not "roasty" enough for me. Probably personal reference.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks for your perspectives, guys, gives me some things to consider. It bothers me I don't have the sensory recall from when I last brewed this (well, anything, actually, lol) and lost the recipe, as I enjoyed it quite a bit. I do recall Northdown as I said, and found this really nice baked stone fruit quality I'd like to recapture as just one approach to this.

I've never actually used brown malt, so looking forward to that. As I said I'm going pretty much with Terry Foster's IS go-to, it seems, of the 10% brown, then 1:1 on BP and chocolate. We'll see. But I don't know that I've ever made a stout before without using roast barley (I completely hear you on this, snowtiger).

chickypad, it's a great point on the use of debittered black. My wife is Estonian, and her late grand-uncle** ran the Tartu Brewery (A. Le Coq) under the soviets (and after their fall). So, his was the first IS I'd tried, and it got me so geeked I tried several more and I think that's influencing me here. I do recall a velvety, black smoothness, and though I don't know if they used debittered black, from my later trials, it felt like they did (I wasn't a brewer when I met her uncle...much to my chagrin. Stories I'm sure he had, and expertise to share!). Truthfully I was more reminded of a huge porter than a stout. So since, I tend to tuck some debittered in on larger dark brews but I think you're absolutely right. Thanks for the thought.




**If you have Michael Jackson's Beer Companion and go to page 190 where he refers to "the director," that's my wife's uncle Heino Pallu. A huge presence in every way, and I'm sad he's gone.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just went into promash and found a few from some time ago. Interesting for me to see, not sure it's any interest for you guys, lol. The "Baltic Black" either influenced or was influenced by the IS I used to make, not sure. And you can ignore the bittering levels - I think over the years I simply tossed in northdown as a kind of placehold, for some reason, not sure why. I now use MO for my base in everything, at least so far. Anyway, these range from 2001-2004. It's about when I stopped brewing.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

So - I aim for a Yorkshire Square but that's proving very difficult. In the meantime, I'd like to get going in the way I always brewed, which is in a keg. Because this will not be open and I cannot rouse as I could with a true Yorkshire Square emulation, I don't want to use Black Sheep's flocculant yeast, particularly on this high OG brew.

"Back then," for my dark ales including the baltic black shown above, I used either White Labs's WLP023 (London) or WLP005 (British), and enjoyed both. Thoughts, for a RIS (BTW, anticipated OG=1.105)? Either will be ramped up to appropriate yeast population levels.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So - I aim for a Yorkshire Square but that's proving very difficult. In the meantime, I'd like to get going in the way I always brewed, which is in a keg. Because this will not be open and I cannot rouse as I could with a true Yorkshire Square emulation, I don't want to use Black Sheep's flocculant yeast, particularly on this high OG brew.

"Back then," for my dark ales including the baltic black shown above, I used either White Labs's WLP023 (London) or WLP005 (British), and enjoyed both. Thoughts, for a RIS (BTW, anticipated OG=1.105)? Either will be ramped up to appropriate yeast population levels.

Can't you rouse it the traditional way used by generations of British landlords to condition a cask - kick it round the cellar? Or rather, carefully rotate it at exactly one revolution in 5.6 seconds - don't be one of the fools who rotates it in 5.5 or 5.7s... ;-)

I've never brewed anything up at that kind of gravity, but my first thought would be WLP540 "Rochefort" (1762??) - according to Suregork's list it's not Belgian but a classic British yeast, POF- but with lots of esters and obviously is right at home in a boozy dark beer.

Otherwise - Edinburgh is meant to have a bit more alcohol tolerance than the ones you mention and might work quite well?

If you want to go really left-field, WLP050 Tennessee Whiskey? It's probably not one to use on a big batch of a precious beer, but I've got some to have a play with in small batches. Unusually for a distilling yeast it's POF- but the ester profile according to Gallone is kinda nuts, shedloads of things like phenyl ethyl acetate and isoamyl acetate. And obviously no worries about ABV limits!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Can't you rouse it the traditional way used by generations of British landlords to condition a cask - kick it round the cellar? Or rather, carefully rotate it at exactly one revolution in 5.6 seconds - don't be one of the fools who rotates it in 5.5 or 5.7s... ;-)

I've never brewed anything up at that kind of gravity, but my first thought would be WLP540 "Rochefort" (1762??) - according to Suregork's list it's not Belgian but a classic British yeast, POF- but with lots of esters and obviously is right at home in a boozy dark beer.

Otherwise - Edinburgh is meant to have a bit more alcohol tolerance than the ones you mention and might work quite well?

If you want to go really left-field, WLP050 Tennessee Whiskey? It's probably not one to use on a big batch of a precious beer, but I've got some to have a play with in small batches. Unusually for a distilling yeast it's POF- but the ester profile according to Gallone is kinda nuts, shedloads of things like phenyl ethyl acetate and isoamyl acetate. And obviously no worries about ABV limits!

YES! Northern, you are truly the man. Of course, looking forward to doing just this! How do you feel about using HH in these circumstances? (Don't know if Samuel Smith moves to another yeast for their Imperial Stout, though this OG is obviously considerably higher anyway).

And thanks on the yeast suggestions, outside of the Edinburgh strains I know nothing of the others. A distiller's yeast - that is a wild, intoxicating suggestion.

A rich post as usual, Northern, providing a lot of help. Thanks.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well it's a style I've never brewed, and you're asking about a yeast I've never used... But blatant ignorance has never stopped me voicing an opinion in the past. Generally one would be worried about British yeast at that kind of og unless you give them some help from a wine yeast like WLP099, but if HH does turn out to be another of these Yorkshire saison yeasts then it may well be OK. I guess you could do a small stepped starter to get it into a small 1.100 starter and just see how it gets on - not completely representative but it will give you some idea.

Rochefort is probably the safe option as it is known to have great alcohol tolerance and it makes one of my favourite beers, although WL recommend extra oxygenation for it. I'd be wary of WLP050 without getting to know it a bit, the few people who've used it for beer have reported mixed results, but I look forward to having a play with it!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well it's a style I've never brewed, and you're asking about a yeast I've never used... But blatant ignorance has never stopped me voicing an opinion in the past. Generally one would be worried about British yeast at that kind of og unless you give them some help from a wine yeast like WLP099, but if HH does turn out to be another of these Yorkshire saison yeasts then it may well be OK. I guess you could do a small stepped starter to get it into a small 1.100 starter and just see how it gets on - not completely representative but it will give you some idea.

Rochefort is probably the safe option as it is known to have great alcohol tolerance and it makes one of my favourite beers, although WL recommend extra oxygenation for it. I'd be wary of WLP050 without getting to know it a bit, the few people who've used it for beer have reported mixed results, but I look forward to having a play with it!

(ignorance = opinion....hahahah, thought that was my bailiwick, lol). I would never have thought of the micro-testing to batch gravity. Seriously grateful as I love this stuff, Northern, just don't know a damn thing compared to yourself and others like you. Looking forward to it. As well as the HH-saison testing.

My LHBS, unfortunately, only releases WLP540 during the summer months. I haven't checked around to see if that's generally the case but bummed because it really intrigues me. Freaks me, to be honest, to have more than one yeast in my "plant" but it's a fear I need to get over because I love making lagers as well, and love Belgian ales. We'll see if it's available because I'd love to play with such a beast.

Just a note, not sure how to estimate this, but when I used pure O2 injection, for ales up to about 15P or so, it was 1.25 minutes into 10 gallons. Have no idea how much d02 that represented, it just seemed to work well, ceteris paribus. I understand this strain really needs to get goosed. Any guidelines, if using pure O2 of the diffusion stone/small tank and line variety?

Edit: 540, yep, seasonal. I'm making dark ales to start because the friends who lent me their gear to build everything tend to enjoy malt and not hops - and I'm loading them and their families up considerably. So it's porters, stouts,. perhaps Scotches, for the time being....

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WLP540 is one of WL's core strains, so anywhere that's on their FCP scheme where they get the full set of core strains 3 times a year, should have it.

Or just get a bottle of Rochefort? They're meant to bottle with the production strain I believe.

On the grounds that yeast are relatively easy to kill, if you can't kill off yeast then what else is your sanitation not killing?

O2 stuff - I won't even pretend to bluff it this time, not my department.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

WLP540 is one of WL's core strains, so anywhere that's on their FCP scheme where they get the full set of core strains 3 times a year, should have it.

Or just get a bottle of Rochefort? They're meant to bottle with the production strain I believe.

On the grounds that yeast are relatively easy to kill, if you can't kill off yeast then what else is your sanitation not killing?

O2 stuff - I won't even pretend to bluff it this time, not my department.

Thanks Northern. Prior to your posting I'd earlier written to WL, and got confirmation tonight the 540 is core, as you say, and available year round as of 2018. Just have to find a source - I'm sorry, I'm sure this is what you're talking about, but can you tell me what "FCP scheme" means?

Thank you for that info on Rochefort. Regardless of buying the 540, it would be fun to ranch this anyway.

Sanitation - duh. Right, thank you.

O2. Not my department either. Obviously.

ps: Thank you also for the Suregork reference. The web equivalent of all the books bedside that grow daily!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

FCP = Freshness Certification Program, it's like a subscription service for the equivalent of "main dealers" to have all the 68 core strains in stock. (in theory) You soon get a feel for which stores have the full range.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks, Northern. Some First Gold arrived today, along with some Kent and some EKG (I do wonder how well dealers distinguish these). Many others to come, but man, have to say, that First Gold sent me to heaven. I think some strong bitter just pushed its beautiful self to the front of the line.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks, Northern. Some First Gold arrived today, along with some Kent and some EKG (I do wonder how well dealers distinguish these). Many others to come, but man, have to say, that First Gold sent me to heaven. I think some strong bitter just pushed its beautiful self to the front of the line.

I get the impression that US brewing suppliers have next to no awareness of British geography, and it certainly doesn't seem to have penetrated that "East Kent" is a protected designation and "special" whereas "Kent" isn't. I'd guess that "Kent" means EKG even though in theory it could refer to Goldings grown anywhere in Kent. But since the contraction of the industry there just isn't that much grown in the rest of Kent, here we see a lot of EKG, very rarely Hereford, but normally it's just EKG or generic "Goldings" (which are almost certainly from Hereford/Worcester, it's just they're behind on their branding).

Same happens with Styrians, they haven't really caught up with Savijnski being one variety from Slovenia.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Without living there, I completely hear you, Northern. That's actually a fairly forgiving view of humanity. With as much history and prestige attached to EKG, I fear there's more at play than simple ignorance of the fact that "Kent" and "EKG" have no necessary equivalence.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well I'm well aware that my countrymen would apply the word "Yank" to anyone from Boston to Alabama, it works both ways. If you're implying there's skulduggery at work then that would require ordinary Kent Goldings to be easily available, and if they're not easily available in the UK, then it's hard to see how people are getting hold of them to "upgrade" to EKG.

TBH the one that really gets me is the way White Labs refer to WLP025 coming from Suffolk County - the grammar of British counties follows US states, not US counties, so saying a yeast comes from Suffolk County is as weird as saying it comes from Maine State or Maryland State.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well I'm well aware that my countrymen would apply the word "Yank" to anyone from Boston to Alabama, it works both ways. If you're implying there's skulduggery at work then that would require ordinary Kent Goldings to be easily available, and if they're not easily available in the UK, then it's hard to see how people are getting hold of them to "upgrade" to EKG.

TBH the one that really gets me is the way White Labs refer to WLP025 coming from Suffolk County - the grammar of British counties follows US states, not US counties, so saying a yeast comes from Suffolk County is as weird as saying it comes from Maine State or Maryland State.

I'm just too cynical of a bastard, I think, Northern. I've absolutely nothing to go on, except as I think on it, my years in the culinary and wine world. "It's a busy little ditty of a wine" could turn plonk into something so highly valued a guy would drop a ton on such wine to impress his Hollywood starlet date...

-and I need a shower.