Rims tube for sparge

[chigundo]

I have a 10 gallon igloo and a 15 gallon BK and blichmann burner. (And another 7 gallon pot I use to heat up and transfer water).

I want to be able to hit my mash temp more consistently, and I know a rims will help with that. However, is it possible to sparge with the rims as well? Will a 120v element bring room temp water up to sparge temps (170ish)? If not, how long would one have to recirculate a HLT at room temp thru a rims to bring it up to that temp prior to the sparge?


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[phreaky]

I don't see any way a 120v element would do it. I use a 5500w element in mine, and it can raise water 100 degrees at 1.25 qts per minute. That means I get just the right flow of water raised from 70 to 170 degrees to fly sparge.

 

[chigundo]

So a 120 rims most useful application is really just to maintain the mash?


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[jammin]

Why not give it a try? Just set your valves for your approximate fly sparge rate and see what happens?

 

[horseinmay]

You could use a RIMS tube to heat the sparge water, but probably not fast enough to use it as an on-demand water heater. With 120V on a 20A service, you could go as high as 2000W (although that may be pushing it if you have a pump on the same circuit) which you could use to heat an HLT. Whether it's in the vessel or in the RIMS tube, you'll still have pretty efficient heating since the element is in contact with the liquid.

 

[dyqik]

You can also use the RIMS tube as a final heater to produce controlled temperature from your HLT, without having to worry about controlling the HLT temperature. For fly sparging you can heat the sparge water in your 7 gal pot to about 165F on your burner, then start the sparge from that pot, using the pump to push the sparge water through the RIMS, which does the final bit of heating to your chosen sparge temperature. Your sparge water in the HLT will cool during the long sparge, but a 1000W RIMS will easily keep up with reheating that water back to your sparge temperature.

It saves having a second controller to maintain the HLT temperature, you just need to get the HLT within 10-20 degrees of your sparge temperature.

 

[TheBiGZ]

the flow rate of the liquid going past the element is going to be too high to expect that much of an increase in temp using only one pass. So you can't put cold water in your HLT and pump it through the RIMS and into the mash tun. Depending on your flow rate, it likely wouldn't even raise it one degree in one pass.
It would certainly work if you recirculate the water in the HLT until you reach strike temp. But using only a 1500 watt element would take a long time to heat up...probably an hour or more. I recirculate and use a 4500w element and it takes upwards of 30 minutes to get to strike temp.

 

[kenh]

Based on this article I found a while ago, you won't be able to heat your sparge water "on the fly" or as you need it. A 120V element does not generate enough BTUs.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Homebrewing-Brew-Kettle-BTU-Calculations/

I just re-read the article and their step three shows time to heat sparge water with a 2000 watt element at 75 minutes with the lid on and 120 minutes with the lid off.

 

[jammin]

Shouldn't the calculations be done base on how quickly the water is passing through the RIMs tube?

 

[kenh]

Shouldn't the calculations be done base on how quickly the water is passing through the RIMs tube?

A heating element puts out a set amount of BTUs. Regardless if you pass your 10 gallons through your RIMS tube fast or slow you will only get that many BTUs into your water in an hour. Pass through slower and the water will be exiting your RIMS tube hotter but it will mix with the 10 gallons and the 10 gallons will be the same temperature at the end.

 

[NuttyProf21]

I normally allow my sparge water to cool a bit as I sparge. I feel that it reduces the chances of extracting husk tannin.

 

[jammin]

A heating element puts out a set amount of BTUs. Regardless if you pass your 10 gallons through your RIMS tube fast or slow you will only get that many BTUs into your water in an hour. Pass through slower and the water will be exiting your RIMS tube hotter but it will mix with the 10 gallons and the 10 gallons will be the same temperature at the end.

^obviously

my point is, you can use your room temp water source and run through the RIMs tube slow enough that it can be heated to sparge temps... straight into the mash tun/onto the grain bed

everyone knows fly sparging is a slow process so I perhaps it might work. if i was still up to speed with my college thermodynamics I could probably do the math

Isnt the whole point of this thread to substitute a RIMs tube for a HLT?

 

[helibrewer]

I use two 1000W, 120V bucket heaters to heat HLT water (strike/sparge). My RIMs is a 1650W, 120V element. The RIMs does a great job at control but just barely raises 1 degree per minute so it doesn't step well. For a serious step mash I use my old immersion chiller as a HEX in conjunction with my RIMs. I do use PID for both HLT and MLT control. This also requires 2 separate circuits even though I use 3.

 

[Bobby_M]

It can be done with 4500 or 5500 watt elements. At 5500 watts, you can get a 130F rise at 1 liter per minute which is a typical fly sparge rate. If you're willing to sparge slower, say 500ml per minute and your starting temp is 70F, you could probably get away with it on 2000watts. It's not going to be 170F, but that's not a big deal.

 

[mredge73]

WATTS = TEMPERATURE RISE (F) x GALLONS PER MINUTE x 147

So at 1500W you want to take 70F water to 170F:
1500w = 100F x GPM x 147
GPM = 0.1

So in theory if you have 4 gallons water to sparge, it will take you 40 minutes.

 

[BigFloppy]

WATTS = TEMPERATURE RISE (F) x GALLONS PER MINUTE x 147

So at 1500W you want to take 70F water to 170F:
1500w = 100F x GPM x 147
GPM = 0.1

So in theory if you have 4 gallons water to sparge, it will take you 40 minutes.

that's realistic

 

[kenh]

WATTS = TEMPERATURE RISE (F) x GALLONS PER MINUTE x 147

So at 1500W you want to take 70F water to 170F:
1500w = 100F x GPM x 147
GPM = 0.1

So in theory if you have 4 gallons water to sparge, it will take you 40 minutes.

There is something wrong with this formula. If I have 4 gallons of water recirculating through my RIMS tube the circulation speed should have no bearing on how fast the 4 gallons is heating because the element is dumping a constant number of BTUs into whatever is passing though the tube.

 

[Bobby_M]

No, but it does for one-pass inline heating which is what I think the formula is meant to solve for. In other words, the water doesn't pass through the RIMS and go back into a holding tank but goes right on top of the grainbed.

 

[mredge73]

The formula is for a tankless water heater; one-pass inline heating.

 

[goaticus]

Sorry to dredge up a semi-old thread, but has anyone tried this with a hot water supply? Even if it was only 130 degrees coming out of your hot water supply, you would only have to go up 40 deg. I was thinking of doing this on my planned RIMS setup using hot water from water heater. With a 5500 watt ULD element you could run up to just under a gallon per minute. It seems like it might also help if you had some way to maintain some turbulence in the RIMS tube. But, even with a 2" tube, that wouldn't leave you much room around the element. I would love to be able to get around having a HLT.

 

[crane]

Sorry to dredge up a semi-old thread, but has anyone tried this with a hot water supply? Even if it was only 130 degrees coming out of your hot water supply, you would only have to go up 40 deg. I was thinking of doing this on my planned RIMS setup using hot water from water heater. With a 5500 watt ULD element you could run up to just under a gallon per minute. It seems like it might also help if you had some way to maintain some turbulence in the RIMS tube. But, even with a 2" tube, that wouldn't leave you much room around the element. I would love to be able to get around having a HLT.

I have thought about this route as well but the one thing I couldn't find an answer to is finding a house water filter that is meant to filter hot water. I suspect that a normal water filter will either fail to filter the water properly or the seals/filter membrane will far apart.

In terms of using a RIMS tube as a on demand water heater I saw a thread on here where someone tried this with a 5500w element and was able to get it to work with an additional pump that recirculated a portion of the water from the output of the RIMS tube back to the input.

In my own experimentation I have not been successful at getting from 70 to 170 by leaving the element on 100% and throttling my pump output down. I have a 5500w element in my RIMS tube.

 

[ChuckO]

Here's a thread on a 2 vessel system that heats sparge water on the fly.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-build-129646/

I built my system somewhat on this concept but recently have switched to a 3 vessel system so that I could adjust sparge water. I can now use RO water and adjust the chemistry profile for the style. The concept of heating sparge on demand does work, although the water supply incoming temperature can't be too low or the sparge rate must be decreased.

I personally don't like the concept of using water from the hot water tank for brewing. I have chilled a glass of water from my water heater and tasted it. It just doesn't taste right to me.

 

[goaticus]

In terms of using a RIMS tube as a on demand water heater I saw a thread on here where someone tried this with a 5500w element and was able to get it to work with an additional pump that recirculated a portion of the water from the output of the RIMS tube back to the input.

Was this with preheated or cold water, though?

 

[Bobby_M]

Was this with preheated or cold water, though?

As I stated earlier in the thread, At 5500 watts, you can get a 130F rise at 1 liter per minute which is a typical fly sparge rate. The caveat to using inline heat is that you can't add any salts or acids if you needed to.

 

[crane]

As I stated earlier in the thread, At 5500 watts, you can get a 130F rise at 1 liter per minute which is a typical fly sparge rate. The caveat to using inline heat is that you can't add any salts or acids if you needed to.

Is this from theoretical calculations or imperial testing? My testing has not come close to a 100F rise. I know I could improve it by insulating my RIMS tube but I haven't tried it. I have a 2" RIMS from stout tanks which is quite long so there is a decent amount of surface area to dissipate heat into the air.

 

[Bobby_M]

Empirical testing. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AGUOCeM-WU[/ame]

 

[jleiii]

Nice video Bobby. I've been pondering the same use with the RIMS tube I just got from you.

Given the large temp swing as the controller tries to keep up, is it even capable of keeping it 'close enough' after tuning? I know that some people have talked about using the RIMS tube for step mashing as well. This would be much more difficult to dial in on the ideal temperature I would think.

When used for RIMS the lower wattage and close input to output temp do give vastly better control, as is commonly seen in the forums.

So, is anyone using controllers that have a variable voltage or milliamp output driving a variable output power control? I know that the on/off SSR is the standard (and most cost effective), but a variable output system would have no problem keeping a constant temp, probably within tenths of a degree.

Omega (and other industrial controller mfgs) make PID and Ramp/Soak controllers with milliamp outputs, but the power controls to go with them are hard to find, and expensive, Payne Eng ~$150, Phasetronics $$$, can't find one from Omega even though they offer that controller type.

Anyone running this type of controller?

John

 

[dyqik]

I think Bobby is doing something a bit simpler than that, but which would achieve much the same aim - there's a 120V/240V switch on his panel, which IIRC switches the tube's element from 120V to 240V operation.

Or you could find an analog PID controller. I think we've got one of these in the lab - a snip at $1760... There are also circuit diagrams out there if you want to build your own.

 

[jleiii]

I think Bobby is doing something a bit simpler than that, but which would achieve much the same aim - there's a 120V/240V switch on his panel, which IIRC switches the tube's element from 120V to 240V operation.

Or you could find an analog PID controller. I think we've got one of these in the lab - a snip at $1760... There are also circuit diagrams out there if you want to build your own.

I was not speculating on Bobby's method in any way. Using the 5500 (or 4500) watt element on 120 volts is typical for RIMS. He took it to the next level as per the thread topic. I'm considering doing the same thing, and unsure of the control-ability.
I was wondering if anyone is using the variable output control & controller for a similar use.

You can buy this type of controller ($100) and SCR from the sources noted, and yes you can build them, but at $150 for a professional SCR control (with warranty), is it really worth it?

 

[ChuckO]

When I was using the RIMS for heating the sparge water I found that splitting the output from the RIMS tube and pumping some of it back into the input along with feed water from the tap allowed me to cycle water through the RIMS with sufficient volume to level out the temperature swings.

Check back to the link that I included in post # 22 for the basics of the system that I modeled mine from. It does require the second pump though.