RIMS Build

[Sizz]

Just wondering about your control box. I noticed you have 3 40A SSRs. What is the 3rd one used for? In your parts writeup you only accounted for 2.

TD

Thanks. My original plan was a standard 3-vessel system but since I don't have a HLT it's not used. I just put it in as a backup.

 

[kitemanks]

I saw the element way back at the beginning sorry for forgetting.... anyways its my understanding that most extra low watt elements are made of a stainless and nickle alloy... Its nice to know you didn't have any problems as I have one on the way.

Cheers Eric,

 

[Jmurm]

With the Controller i have i cannot pulse my rims, so it powers on 100% do you guys know how i can build something i can put in-between my DC input to the ssr to pulse it manually?

 

[brewjunky]

I think we are all waiting for the answer to that question. I think there are some encouraging results using the rims heater as a Instant hot water heater but the Scortching issue still remains. Only an experiment will tell.

Use a 4500 watt 240v heater in my boil kettle with no scorching what so ever. Its high density but not ultra high I got it at homedepot.

I have heard that wort scorching is a myth I have never had any problems

 

[Sawdustguy]

It's not a myth. If your element gets hot enough where the sugar in the wort catamelizes, you wort is scortched. This is not usually too much of a problem in a boil kettle where there is a lot of wort surrounding the element but in a RIMS tube where you have a lot less wort surrounding an element where the high heat is concentrated over the smaller surface area of a high density element it is possible. This has and can happen.

 

[Baja_Brewer]

The tankless sparge mode worked well and provided a steady stream of 170F water at a flow rate of 1qt/min.

Alright, I know its a bit after the fact, and you mentioned that you've been busy with your boy (congrats!) but I was wondering if I could get a final breakdown of how you managed to achieve this?

I've been putting a good bit of time trying to figure out how to do it, and from what I read (several times over because I suck with electricity stuff) you are:
1) Putting water through at a constant flow rate?
2) Using a 5400 W Low Density (240V) element?
3) Using a PID (via BCS) to control the output temperature?

Sorry if these are redundant questions, all the info I'm looking for here is a bit scattered!

 

[makapu91]

I am building a heat exchanger and the result of my preliminary tests are two busted water heater elements. Not very good!

The heat exchanger is made of 1-1/4 SS pipe with a 4500 watt LWD (test 1) and 5500 watt HWD (test 2). The goal is to get instant strike water temperature (at a slow flow).

The first element busted in about 5 min. About 5 inches of the element inflated and is now of a tarnish rusted color instead of being shinny. I had to bend that element to make it to fit in the pipe and I slightly scored it. So I though that could have been the cause.

I bought the 5500W because it was cheap at Home Depot and I did not want to risk to much. This one worked longer I had time to complete some test. Reached 140F, 160F, 190F... To that point, the element was just powered by a direct voltage apply to these elements.

So, I wanted to move to the next step in put the Brew Troller to work with a 40A SSR. That worked for a while (10-15 min) enough to see the Brew Monitor in action. Sweet dream, reality!!! Then busted again, nightmare!!!

QUESTIONS:
- I grounded the heat exchanger. Could the element get in touch with the inside of the pipe and create a shortcut?
- Or what else could make that happen?

I will appreciate any hint on the subject! Thanks!

 

[willynilly]

Very odd...

The element touching the side of the RIMS will not cause a short, if it did, that would mean that it is also energizing the fluid it is heating, which it is not.

My last system had (2) 4500W LWD elements in it and it worked fine at 9000W output. Is there some off chance that air is getting in there and the element is burning up?

I am perplexed

 

[kitemanks]

My imediate thought is that these two elements can't be dry fired. That is there can be absolutely no air around the elements when they are turned on. If you arrange the system where the element is at the bottom of your chamber, then all the air is easily evacuated from your heating chamber. If the flow rate is to slow then the water can boil in your heating chamber causing, you got it some o2 bubbles.

Going with 240v elements, I would also look at your breaker as well and see and or explain to others your power supply and what amp breaker you're using. You might discover going to a lower amp breaker would help you sort out any wiring problem, without melting your element if air isn't the problem.
I always treat brewing problems like my car problems go for the $5.00 answer first.

Your strike water will do better with a HD element, while your rims temps will do better with a extra low watt density element. Going to 120v in the rims element will allow it to fit in the pipe without any altering.

my 2 cents

 

[makapu91]

Following my element autopsy added to everybody comments on the possible cause of failure, I looked for an over heating scenario. I fortunately come to a conclusion (before my unplanned R&D budget gets to high). My heat exchanger was laying down/horizontally. So even though, the water exit was up/above the HEX, that noticeably did not work well (at least for the 1-1/4 pipe I use).

Now the HEX is upward, and I feel confident it will not burn now.

 

[weirdboy]

OK so this is unrelated to the RIMS part of the build, but why does this system have 2 pumps? It seems like the only time the second pump is used is for chilling...and you could just as easily do that with one pump and a couple of valves, or QDs and moving the tubing from the MLT to the CFC.

 

[Layne]

This is VERY interesting!
Too bad I'm electrically challanged.
Too bad no one is building and selling the electric part of this.....yet. I'll get in line for that.

 

[Hawgbranch]

I like the idea of On-Demand sparge water while also using the element as a RIMs. For someone who does not have a BCS, would this be possible without it?

 

[Bobby_M]

Need to keep this thread alive! Now that I have a 200 amp service, the dream of an electric brewery is closer to being reality. Ever since this thread got started I was 90% sure I would have an inline, on demand strike/sparge water system. What I didn't realize at the time was that it offered no way to integrate external water sources and had to deal directly with tap water. I guess I need to figure out how often I would want to cut tap with a portion of distilled/RO and how I would compensate for it.

One option is to add portion of RO to the mash tun, then overheat the incoming tap so that it settles at my desired strike temp. Another way would be to fill the MLT with the tap water portion, add RO, then recirc back through the heating tube until I hit my setpoint.

After all this, I may stick with a traditional HLT with a 5500w element and have a separate 2000w rims tube. You can still run the incoming tap through the rims tube as a first pass boost and then turn the MLT element on once it's under water.

 

[Sizz]

I'm back, sorta. Having a kid really drained my willpower to do much. I've managed to keep Tennis as a hobby but I still haven't brewed in a year. Fortunately, I plan on firing it back up before my grain goes bad. I plan on cleaning the system this weekend and brewing the day after my son's first birthday on the 26th. To answer some questions:

OK so this is unrelated to the RIMS part of the build, but why does this system have 2 pumps?

The original plan was a standard 3-vessel system which required 2 pumps. I ended up ordering and installing both before I validated the HLT-less design. Only one pump is actually needed.

I like the idea of On-Demand sparge water while also using the element as a RIMs. For someone who does not have a BCS, would this be possible without it?

You need some method of throttling the element. A simple ON/OFF temperature controller is too slow and will not work. Ideally, you'd have a PID temperature controller and a solid state relay. You can get standalone PID controllers for $40.

One thing Bobby pointed out which hasn't been addressed before is using non-tap water. I have good tap water and filtering it is sufficient. I don't think this system would be very beneficial to those using RO. You'd need a RO reservoir and gravity feed the sparge water through the rims. I guess this would allow you to keep the RO reservoir away from the system and not on your brewcart. An HLT would be best if you had room.

 

[Sizz]

Took the system apart for inspection and cleaning since it's been idle for a year. There was some rust on the base of the RIMS element. I cleaned it throughly with PBW and finished with BKF. Added some food grade silicone to encapsulate the element inside the little 1.5" to 1" adapter. I can still remove the element if needed without too much effort.

I decided to improve the design a little. As I said earlier, I had difficulty tuning the PID in tankless sparge mode because of the large temperature differential and extremely slow flow rate. I decided to add a small recirculation path to the RIMS. The new layout is shown below. The pump is basically recirculating the sparge water while pressure from the ground water is slowly overfilling the rims loop. The excess water is pushed out of the loop and back into the MLT. Maintaining temperatures will much easier and I can use the same PID parameters from the mash recirc. The only drawback to this mod is that it will require two pumps which I fortunately already have in place. Ordered some more tees which should be in today.

 

[Bobby_M]

That's a genius idea and I think you'll have a much better result.

 

[IrregularPulse]

What program are you all using to draw up your process diagrams? And is it free??

 

[Sizz]

It's just Microsoft PowerPoint. Came with my laptop....

 

[ahave]

How would you be regulating the position on valves 1 & 3? By hand until you find a 'good' position, or do you have plans to setup some sort of control for this?

 

[Sizz]

All of these are manual control ball valves. I enjoy brewing and I wanted minimal automation, just enough to brew without lifting heavy pots, swapping messy lines or fiddling with temperature issues. While sparging, valve 3 is wide open and valve 1 is set to whatever sparge rate i'm aiming for. Now that you mention regulating flow, I believe i'll need an additional valve on the output of pump 2. I don't think you can limit flow with a valve on the input side of a pump right?

 

[ahave]

If you are wanting to regulate the flow of P2, V6 should would do that for you. And yes, you don't want to limit the input of an impeller pump.

I suppose I am not fully following your diagram. (Don't get me wrong I like the idea). If I understand your setup, valves V3 & V2 are wide open, V1 partially open, and with V4 shut. I suppose as long as the path to the MLT is of enough resistance your fluids will stay within the loop..?

Fluids will follow path of least resistance, so what will keep your liquids from just going straight into the MLT when you regulate the flow of P1 by partially shutting V1?

 

[Sizz]

If you are wanting to regulate the flow of P2, V6 should would do that for you. And yes, you don't want to limit the input of an impeller pump.

I was afraid of that. P2 actually flows towards the CFC so I would need another valve there.

I suppose I am not fully following your diagram. (Don't get me wrong I like the idea). If I understand your setup, valves V3 & V2 are wide open, V1 partially open, and with V4 shut. I suppose as long as the path to the MLT is of enough resistance your fluids will stay within the loop..?

Yep. V1 will barely be open at 1 qt / min which is the most pressure in the loop. The vacuum from the pump is the path of least resistance. Head pressure from the elevated MLT provides a little resistance and the only path out.

 

[Sizz]

Just finished a 10gallon porter batch. The new sparge loop worked like a charm. I was able to nail sparge temps as high as 190F (just as a quick test). I need to insulate both vessels. The MLT barely got above 160 during the mash out despite the out outgoing rims temp at 175. A lot of heat is lost during the slow sparge. Had a little boilover since I was late on throttling the BK element down. Everything else went smoothly! New layout shown below.

 

[klyph]

thats a great lookin system. Love the fixed plumbing.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Sizz, do you have any photos peering down into the kettles and also of your fly sparge setup? Big fan of your rig and may be copying you a bit. But I would love to know more about how you set up the kettles inside for recirc and also for sparge.

Thanks

 

[Mose]

Hey SIZZ,

I've read your thread a few times and your build is sweet. I have a couple questions if you don't mind. I'm going electric, two vessel as well, no BCS but PID.

I am doing bottom drain, and have been concerned about two things.

1. Did you worry about or experiance any float of the FB in the MLT? There have been a couple things discussed about that without any real conclusion, with ideas how to keep it secure to the bottom without a dip tube.

2. How did you handle your hop debris in the BK? People have discussed the nylon hop sacks (paint strainers) that won't melt on the element. Any thoughts or concerns that you would clog your bottom drain without a bag?

Again, great build, thanks for the information, and hopefully I'll upgrade to a RIMS on demand system in the future.

 

[Sizz]

These pics were buried a while back in this thread. Here's the bottom-drain MLT without the false bottom. There's 4 holes total: bottom drain, temp probe, sight glass, and recirc return. I'm glad I went with bottom drains. It's much easier to clean and less dead space.

Here's the false bottom and sparge tube. The hinged false bottom is from sabco. Pricey, but the quality was top notch. The fit was perfect and it's beefy. It's much heavier than those domed false bottoms I used in the cooler. There's no way it's moving.

I fiddled around with different sparge outlets but nothing worked as well as just laying a silicone tube down on the grain bed. The flow pushes the tube against the wall and the sparge water slowly whirlpools and mixes well without disturbing the bed.

I don't think I have any pics of the BK internals. It's just like the MLT but with a 1" fitting welded for the element. I'm paranoid about getting the CFC stuck so I always use nylon hop bags. Also, I insert a small ~2 inch silicone tube in the bottom drain. This raises the intake just above the sludge.

 

[Mose]

Thanks SIZZ,

That's what I was hoping to hear. Great idea on the small silicone tube to prevent the sludge clogging your system. I may look into something similar.

I am inverting my keggles and using the existing sanky neck as the bottome drain with a 2" tri clover to 1/2" NPT.

Thanks again.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

I am inverting my keggles and using the existing sanky neck as the bottome drain with a 2" tri clover to 1/2" NPT.

Mose, I am likely doing the same. Saw that in another thread and really like the idea.

Sizz, thanks for posting up those extra pics--that helps a lot!!!