Reverse osmosis equipment advice

[Galactik]

I am wanting to take the next step in my brewing and start playing with water. I havent been able to get a water report from my city, and to get it tested costs more than the equipment to create RO water. I am looking at these 2:

https://www.amazon.ca/Aquatic-Buddie-Reverse-Osmosis-50-Gallon/dp/B00DOG63OY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1485193072&sr=8-2&keywords=reverse+osmosis

https://www.amazon.ca/Aquatic-Changing-Deionization-Cartridge-50-Gallon/dp/B00204CQF6/ref=pd_cp_199_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=12EJQHV1PYA2V8SAGRQ5

Anyone have any thoughts/advice on these systems?

The first looks like a standard RO system, and the second looks like it adds deionization.

 

[Begin2Brew]

The first one will work fine. I see in one of the comments the TDS were tested at zero. That is what you want from an RO system.

 

[Radboud]

I have a 3 stage like your first limk, works fine. Be sure to periodically flush the filter housing when not in use for longer than a week or 2 or else it might start to smell funny. Also be sure to start your water collection on time, having to wait 4 hours for your kettle to fill up sucks

 

[Galactik]

Thank you for the info.

I assume it would be OK to collect the water the night before if I wanted to start brewing early in the morning.

 

[Radboud]

Yeah that's how I do it.

A nice add-on would be to construct a bypass around the flow constrictor, this makes flushing the filter housing much easier. Extra tubing, splitters and valves can be purchased for next to nothing on eBay.

See http://www.thefilterguys.biz/images/MEMBRANEFLUSHKIT.jpg

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

I am wanting to take the next step in my brewing and start playing with water. I havent been able to get a water report from my city, and to get it tested costs more than the equipment to create RO water. I am looking at these 2:

https://www.amazon.ca/Aquatic-Buddie-Reverse-Osmosis-50-Gallon/dp/B00DOG63OY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1485193072&sr=8-2&keywords=reverse+osmosis

https://www.amazon.ca/Aquatic-Changing-Deionization-Cartridge-50-Gallon/dp/B00204CQF6/ref=pd_cp_199_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=12EJQHV1PYA2V8SAGRQ5

Anyone have any thoughts/advice on these systems?

The first looks like a standard RO system, and the second looks like it adds deionization.

I would recommend neither of those systems. What may appear to be an appealing low purchase price will come back to bite you in terms of high cost of operation. The filters on those mini systems are not intended to be used like that. They have very low capacities - in terms of flow they are suitable to treat, and total throughput. Additionally, they are enclosed - meaning when they need to be replaced you'll have to buy the entire enclosure, not just the filter inside.

The second link you provide is an RODI unit - not what you're looking for. It has all the shortcomings of the first unit, plus it has an extra filter you don't need.

Also note the vendor doesn't provide the spec's for each filter in the units. That should be a red flag to you. I also see the vendor states "Typical Rejection Rate: 1:4.5" - the vendor is apparently mis-informed as they are mis-using the term "rejection rate." Rejection rate is a term that means the percentage of the TDS in the feedwater that is not allowed to pass through to the RO water - they are confusing "recovery" with "rejection." What that would mean to me as a potential customer is that the vendor I'm dealing with may not be as informed as they should be concerning their product (I'm trying to be polite/kind here).

Russ

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Although we have all the components in the shop necessary, there is a reason we don't build/sell units with like these...

 

[The_Bishop]

I'd just like to point out that the first unit, or indeed any RO system that doesn't have a deionizer (which is not necessary for our uses) cannot turn out 0 tds water unless it's being fed nearly 0 TDS water to begin with.

 

[mongoose33]

Couple of thoughts:

First, I bought a 50-gallon unit; for something like $8 more or some such, I could have had a 100-gallon unit. I run this during brew day, into an Aquatainer. Takes 3-4 hours to fill the 7-gallon unit. I wish I had the higher capacity so I could do it faster. I've attached a pic below showing how I use it.

Second, I bought mine from Buckeye Hydro. Russ was tremendous in helping me be sure i had what i needed. In fact, I paid less for my 50-gallon unit than the second one you list.

I will undoubtedly upgrade at some point (I'll sell my current unit to a buddy, is my thinking ), and I'll do it through Buckeye Hydro. The prices are, IMO, quite similar to what you have elsewhere, and you have direct product support. I like that.

Just my 2 cents. BTW, that's the Buckeye Hydro that is earlier in this thread.

[Russ told me to make sure I run my unit regularly; the RO filter needs to be used to retain effectiveness, or it won't end up working properly. Since I brew every week or two, I do that automatically--but hadn't since about Dec 19th. I was out of the country for a few weeks and forgot to run it briefly before I left. I came back expecting to need to replace the filter, but I ran it and guess what? Still works as it's supposed to. I bought a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter from Buckeye to check that the water was what it's supposed to be, and lo and behold, it is.

Darned good filter. Now if I can get my buddy to take it off my hands so I can upgrade to the 100 gallon unit..... ]

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

We love happy customers!

Don't forget a 100 gpd membrane will fit perfectly in your system. Remove the 50 and slide in the 100. You'll also want to replace the $4 flow restrictor - will take you all of 60 seconds and you'd have the membrane and restrictor changed out.

Emily

 

[Galactik]

Thanks for the added information. Like I said I have had a hard time getting a water quality report from my City, but they did give me some info from emails:

Good morning:

Our water consistently has a hardness and alkalinity of 40 mg/L. The pH will range 7.7-7.9. TDS of the water is 80 microseimens/cm.

Cheers

and

We do not use chloramines, we do use sodium hypochlorite as our disinfectant.

 

[ajdelange]

You are speaking of an ion exchanger or really a pair thereof not a "deionizer". The cation exchanger exchanges any cation for the equivalent number of hydrogen ions and the anion exchanger exchanges any anion for OH-. When the former meets the latter water is formed so the ions do appear to be removed.

 

[The_Bishop]

You're correct. I was referring to it by the name people usually use for the 'final' stage of an RO system, deionization.

 

[Radboud]

TDS of the water is 80 microseimens/cm

That's about 51ppm. Fwiw, I am at 350ppm, my 3 stage system brings that back to 11ppm.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

You are speaking of an ion exchanger or really a pair thereof not a "deionizer". The cation exchanger exchanges any cation for the equivalent number of hydrogen ions and the anion exchanger exchanges any anion for OH-. When the former meets the latter water is formed so the ions do appear to be removed.

As we see in many cases, there is a bit of a disconnect between language a chemist (AJ) might use, and common parlance.

AJ is right on the money - the final stage(s) of an RODI system are filters containing "ion exchange resin." Where the ion released by the cation resin is H+ and the ion released by the anion resin is OH- (realize this is not the case for all ion exchange resin), the stage is commonly referred to as a "deionizer" or a "deionization" stage. DI stages can either be composed of separate beds (where individual cartridges or tanks contain either cation resin or anion resin, but not both), or mixed bed (where individual cartridges or tanks contain a mix of the cation and anion resin).

The most common ion exchange resin many people are familiar with that does not release an ion that will eventually form H2O is the resin in water softeners. These cation resins release sodium or potassium cations instead. That's why you'll not hear water softening resin referred to as a "deionization" resin.

 

[NTexBrewer]

Thanks for the added information. Like I said I have had a hard time getting a water quality report from my City, but they did give me some info from emails:

Good morning:

Our water consistently has a hardness and alkalinity of 40 mg/L. The pH will range 7.7-7.9. TDS of the water is 80 microseimens/cm.

Cheers

and

We do not use chloramines, we do use sodium hypochlorite as our disinfectant.

http://www.kamloops.ca/publications/pdfs/15-COK-DrinkingWaterSystem-AnnualReport.pdf

Found this on their website. It is from 2015, but I'm guessing they have to produce a report like this each year. Do you have any local breweries in you area? Check and see what they do.

 

[D-Train]

Russ told me to make sure I run my unit regularly; the RO filter needs to be used to retain effectiveness, or it won't end up working properly.

Sorry to hijack, but is this true? What would cause this? I run mine about once a month, sometimes more sometimes less. The filters never dry. I would like to get a TDS meter but don't have one yet so I can't measure performance.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

The issue is the potential for biofouling due to the dechlorinated, stagnant water. Membrane manufacturers want flow through the RO at least once a week.

We tell customers that two 'tools" are required if they want to have any idea of what is going on with their system - even if we're just talking about a small residential system. The tools are a pressure gauge after the prefilters, and a TDS meter.

Russ

 

[ajdelange]

As we see in many cases, there is a bit of a disconnect between language a chemist (AJ) might use, and common parlance.

Don't blame the chemists. AJ is an electrical engineer who took Chem 101 and 102 many years ago but that's about as much claim to being a chemist as he is entitled to make.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

How about "chemist-types"?!

 

[Galactik]

http://www.kamloops.ca/publications/pdfs/15-COK-DrinkingWaterSystem-AnnualReport.pdf

Found this on their website. It is from 2015, but I'm guessing they have to produce a report like this each year. Do you have any local breweries in you area? Check and see what they do.

Thank you VERY much. We have a pretty high tech water treatment plant in town so I assume the water would stay pretty close each year. Gives me a place to start.

Thank you again.

 

[Galactik]

Now I am still trying to sift through that water report to fill in the blanks for Beersmith. Uggg taking business vs chemistry for university

 

[daveMN]

The issue is the potential for biofouling due to the dechlorinated, stagnant water. Membrane manufacturers want flow through the RO at least once a week.

We tell customers that two 'tools" are required if they want to have any idea of what is going on with their system - even if we're just talking about a small residential system. The tools are a pressure gauge after the prefilters, and a TDS meter.

Russ

So, is the pressure gauge an indicator of biofouling or generally clogged filters?

 

[Galactik]

I have taken a shot at reading the water report and THINK i have the values correct.

So for Beersmith I need:

ph - 7.8
calcium - 12ppm
magnesium - 2ppm
sodium - 3.95ppm
sulfate - 5.8ppm
chloride - 0.52ppm
bicarbonate - 39ppm

I think I am using the correct information from that water report, using the Southwest Booster Station readings, but if someone could verify this for me I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[ajdelange]

So, is the pressure gauge an indicator of biofouling or generally clogged filters?

You want a pressure gauge at the system input (indicates feed line pressure) and a second one at the output of the pre filters. With brand new filters installed note the pressure differential (difference of the gauge readings) across the pre-filters. As these pick up particulate matter over time flow through them becomes restricted and the pressure drop across them goes up. Thereby one can roughly gauge the extent of fouling of the filters. Bio fouling of the filters will have the same flow reducing effect as particulate pickup.

 

[SFC Rudy]

I have the four stage RO buddy and also use an RV water filter before the water goes into the RO unit.