Results from first brew with water adjustment...need some help

[JohnK93]

Hello all,

I'm getting down to the bottom of my first batch that included any significant water adjustments. After getting a water report, I used Brun Water to calculate additions to an all Mosaic IPA (5.5 gallon) that I brewed. I've attached images of the Water Report, Grain Bill, or Water Adjustment, and Summary tabs from Brun Water.

The mashing water profile (target Pale Ale profile) after additions was calculated to be:
Calcium: 139
Magnesium: 14
Sodium: 25
Sulfate: 200
Sulfate: 66
Bicarbonate: 98

This would have resulted in a estimated pH of 5.52 but I just realized that I think I forgot to add the 2mL of lactic acid to the mash that I had planned on, so you'll see that the mash pH is now 5.78. (I don't have my notes in front of me right now.) I added 4.6g Gypsum and 1g Baking Soda to the mash water, the 6.1g Gypsum to the boil kettle to reach the target additions.


The result is not what I expected. It's not as crisp and clean as I thought it would be, and it doesn't taste like other all-mosaic IPAs that I've had. After 3/4 of a keg, I can't identify what the flavor is, but it's softer and has more aroma (not hop aroma, some other sort of aroma) than I would expect from 1056. I don't know if this is a result of the water adjustments or the yeast (a washed 1056), but I was hoping that someone could provide any insights on the target numbers and water additions and let me know if you see anything that doesn't seem right. Is 10.7g too much gypsum for a 5 gallon batch? How much would the results change if I hadn't forgotten the lactic acid?

Thanks a lot. Just want to make sure these additions aren't "wrong" before I brew my next batch.

Best,
John

 

[mabrungard]

Why are you adding baking soda when the indicated mashing pH was 5.78? At a minimum, the baking soda should have been deleted. You only add alkalinity to the mash when the predicted pH is much lower than desired.

Yes, this beer is likely to be harsher and duller flavored than desired. Targeting a pH of about 5.4 is good for pale ales. Going even lower can be good for other pale beers.

By the way, you should upgrade to version 1.18 since there are important revisions.

 

[JohnK93]

Martin,

Thanks again for your help. With the lactic acid, the pH would have been 5.52, and I added the baking soda to increase the sodium since without it my sodium level would be 7ppm and target was 25. This also brought the bicarbonate up from 50 to 98, closer to the 110 target for the Pale Ale profile. Should I have used something else to increase sodium and bicarbonate or just left this alone?

I'll definitely upgrade...thanks again.

Best,
John

 

[mabrungard]

This keeps biting me...IGNORE THE BICARBONATE CONCENTRATION IN WATER PROFILES!!!

The ONLY thing that matters is: mashing pH. The bicarbonate content is an approximation of what those water profiles would contain if they exist in real life. For regional and city profiles, the brewers there definitely acidified that water to brew with it.

 

[TheHopfather]

You don't need to increase bicarbonate, you are fighting bicarbonate in a pale beer. Bicarbonate will raise your pH, acid will lower it. In this case you are adding both for no good reason. If you want to bump up sodium try using canning salt.

When adjusting your water the #1 priority is hitting a specific mash pH. Salts will help with the pH in some sense but acid is the main tool for getting your pH where you need it. So select your profile, match it as close as possible with salt additions and do not forget to add the acid.

 

[JohnK93]

Thank you both for the feedback. If I brew this again, I'll lose the baking soda and be sure to add some acid to bring my mash pH down to 5.4.

One last question: I added a total of 10.7g of gypsum, mostly to boost the sulfate:chloride ratio with the additional effect of increasing calcium. Is this a reasonable amount of gypsum? My starting sulfate:chloride is about 1:2 and my understanding is that I want it to be closer to 2:1 for an IPA. The Pale Ale profile seems to be about 5.5:1 so I don't think I went overboard, did I?

Thanks again,
John

 

[TheHopfather]

In my opinion the sulfate:chloride ratio is the wrong thing to focus on, look more at the total amounts. You could have a profile with 50ppm SO4 and 25ppm Cl, a 2:1 ratio, but compare that to a profile of 150ppm SO4 and 75ppm CL, also 2:1 but it will give you a different beer.

Think of sulfate and chloride as flavoring salts, like a chef would use preparing food. Sulfate will increase the perception of hop bitterness and dryness, while chloride increase the perception of malts and mouthfeel. In a pale ale I'd start with 150ppm sulfate and 50 - 60-ish ppm chloride. If that doesn't end up how you want it you can go up in sulfate from there. The "Pale Ale" profile in Brun Water is a bit of an extreme place to start, personally I'd go with the "Yellow Dry" profile as a starting point.

 

[JohnK93]

OK, will do! Thanks. Seems everywhere I turn to learn about water, people have different advice. Others have lead me to believe that the ratio was more important than the actual numbers, but given my lackluster (but drinkable!) results with my first attempt, I'm willing to try another route.

Best,
John

 

[TheHopfather]

Anything I've learned about brewing water has been on this forum, pay particular attention to what Martin Brungard and AJ Delange are saying. Martin wrote Brun Water and has already chimed in on this thread for you, AJ has a lot of helpful info as well. Those 2 have forgotten more about water than I'll ever know!

You're on the right track with your water, it just seems like you were focusing more on hitting arbitrary ppm concentrations rather than focusing on pH. When designing your water just keep thinking pH, pH, pH; everything else is secondary. Get that pH down into the 5.2 - 5.4 range and you'll notice your beers pop. From there it is really just tweaking sulfate and chloride to taste.

 

[JohnK93]

Awesome....thanks!

 

[mabrungard]

The "Pale Ale" profile in Brun Water is a bit of an extreme place to start, personally I'd go with the "Yellow Dry" profile as a starting point.

Good advice, but one thing to remember is that you need to go over the limit to know where your limit is. 100 ppm sulfate is really low for pale ales, but it's a start. I recommend dosing with gypsum in your glass to see if you think it improves the result and higher sulfate is your preference.