Recent kegging experience and questions:

[diannotti]

I just kegged my first two kegs about a month ago. I primary fermented 3 weeks ( first two weeks at 65 to 68 degrees, last week 75 degrees) and then racked to the kegs. I put the kegs in the kegerator at 12 PSI for two weeks. I bled the O2 before placing kegs in the kegerator. The beer was nicely carbonated after 2 weeks on CO2 but I noticed a "sour" or "green apple-ish" taste that people on here refer to as generally being related to "green" or "young" beer. What I cant figure out though is although it has mellowed over the last few weeks it is still there. This would be about 5 weeks since kegging. I doubt seriously there was any beer infection, the brew for informational purposes were two kits a Golden and a nut brown from Midwest. I did full boils and used a copper immersion coil to cool quickly after brewing. My first brew I bottled and it was also a kit ( Brewers best Scotch ale). Absolutely no hint of "sour" in that batch. So I am wondering a few things in retrospect.

1) Should I keg condition as opposed to force? If so, what do you recommend DME, Dextrose?
2)If I stay with force carb method should I leave kegs at room temp two weeks before I actually force carb in the kegerator?{Did weeks 4 and 5 in keg at 40 degrees retard the proper conditioning of my beer?}
3)Is 5 weeks excessive before beer is properly conditioned or is 5 or maybe 8 weeks actually what people should expect before proper conditioning occurs. How long does everyone wait before refrigerating kegged beer?
4) Anything else you can think of that may have caused "green apple / soury " taste? I believe my kits used us05 and us04 yeast and I fermented at 65 to 68

 

[TheBaconator]

A sour taste is generally due to infection. Was it vinegary at all? Tartness can come from plenty of yeasts under certain circumstances. So you may not have done anything wrong, you may have gotten a touch of wild yeast in there. Hard to say without tasting.

1) The main variable in this question is time at fermenting temps. E.g. When you keg and pressurize the beer it usually goes into the kegerator at 38-40 degrees and the yeast chills out a good bit. No pun intended. Whenever I can I do 1 month in the primary, one month in the secondary and then force carbonate for a week or so.

2) I like to secondary in a container other than the kegs. Mainly because if you secondary in the kegs you'll have more sediment in the keg that'll get mixed into your brew and pumped through all your hoses. Can potentially be harder to clean and your finished product will not be as clear of a beer. Personally i like to have all sorts of settling and fermenting done before putting a beer in the keg.

3) 5 weeks is not excessive. With the exception of a few styles, generally the longer you wait, the better your beer gets. If you can stay a few batches ahead on production, you'll ensure every batch secondaries for a month or two before you drink it. This will give you better results for sure. But more specifically, I like 1 month in the primary and 1 month secondary. You also end up with a few choices when its time to keg something else.

4) Back to my point about yeasts. I've fermented several wheat beers that got a little on the hot side(72-75) and they were all tart. So this may just be a yeast thing, i've never brewed with that yeast before.

Hope your brewing goes well and don't forget to rdwhahb.

 

[diannotti]

Not vinegary, this is still very drinkable beer. There is however this "twinge" it hits the corners of your mouth. Again I wonder if going from primary after 3 weeks to refrigerated keg was the main issue - that is the kegs should have stayed at room temp another two weeks to condition.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Green apple taste can come from fermenting some strains of yeast too warm. 65-68^ isn't too warm, but 75^ is a tad warm for most strains of yeast. Especially those of the English persuasion. What strain of yeast did you use?

 

[BryceL]

Not vinegary, this is still very drinkable beer. There is however this "twinge" it hits the corners of your mouth. Again I wonder if going from primary after 3 weeks to refrigerated keg was the main issue - that is the kegs should have stayed at room temp another two weeks to condition.

I usually go 3 weeks in primary then straight to a keg in the kegerator at 12psi for 2-3 weeks with great results. I don't think that this is your problem. Like stated above, perhaps 75 was a tad warm for that particular yeast strain.

 

[geer537]

When I here Green Apple Flavor I think Acetalaldehyde. Could you have intorduced oxygen at any point after fermentation accidentally?

Acetaldehyde - Home Brewing Wiki

 

[diannotti]

I kept the primary under 68 degrees for two weeks ( Safale S04 and US05 )

I have been told many times that once primary fermentation is over the temp is not very critical. My primary fermentation was almost certainly complete within 10 days. I am amazed if the third week in the primary at 75 caused this - not saying it didn't just blown away if that is the cause.

Not sure how or when I could have introduced Oxygen. I went from primary direct to the keg, placed siphon at bottom of keg and put CO2 on it after sealing and purged several times. I mean maybe a bubble or two in the siphon but could that really cause the problem? Thanks for the acetal link , will review.

 

[diannotti]

The only other thing I just thought of is I "crushed" the grains myself and I may have over crushed - could husks and such that escaped the muslin bag possibly cause this slight sour taste?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

The only other thing I just thought of is I "crushed" the grains myself and I may have over crushed - could husks and such that escaped the muslin bag possibly cause this slight sour taste?

I wouldn't think so, but I'm not positive. I had to dump a batch last summer that had fermented in the mid-high 70s with wyeast 1056 (same as s-05) due to a overpowering apple flavor.
Temp is less important after primary has ceased, but after my experience I try to keep a constant temp, in the lower range of the strains range, throughout fermentation unless the yeast I'm using recommends adjusting temps during fermentation.

 

[geer537]

I don't think a few bubbles in the siphon would introduce enough oxygen to cause acetaldehyde. You could extract Tannins from the husks which would cause off flavors but I can't speak to if they would be green apple or not- sorry. HOpefully someone else can chime in and let us know if the astringent flavor from the husks could be likened to green apple

 

[ZamaMan]

Reid you disassemble the keg and clean everything including scrubbing out fhe dip tube?

 

[BryceL]

You said you fermented at 65-68. Just checking, but was that the temperature of your wort or the ambient temperature? If it was ambient then your wort was probably well into the 70's during the first week.

 

[Yooper]

I have been told many times that once primary fermentation is over the temp is not very critical. My primary fermentation was almost certainly complete within 10 days. I am amazed if the third week in the primary at 75 caused this - not saying it didn't just blown away if that is the cause.

I've heard that, too. But I have to say that I"ve NEVER heard a commercial brewer say that temps don't matter after primary, nor anyone with actual experience. I think I have heard it on this forum, simply as people repeating that, not actually experiencing it.

If your actual beer temperature was never higher than 68 degrees, then I would say it might be an early infection process. But if you used S04 and the beer (not ambient temperature) got to above 72 degrees, I could easily see "green apple" being an off-flavor, as S04 gets estery above 68 degrees.

 

[diannotti]

The only other thing I just thought of is I "crushed" the grains myself and I may have over crushed - could husks and such that escaped the muslin bag possibly cause this slight sour taste?

Anyone have any feedback on if this could cause off "sourish" flavor?

Finding it hard to believe temp was the issue as both of these yeasts state 75 at high end of suggested fermentation and and I kept the temp at 68 for two weeks. Also I did sanitize everything including the kegs which were brand new.

 

[flabyboy]

I think I know what off taste you are talking about. Did you notice it in your beer before kegging? I only notice this in my kegged batches. My kegged beer is very drinkable, but I haven't been as happy with the results as I was when bottles priming. Unsure of the cause

 

[diannotti]

I did not notice it before kegging, of course i only tasted a small amount.

 

[Buna_Bere]

How clear is the beer? Maybe you're just tasting some of the yeast still in suspension, or possibly some unsettled protein. I had an off flavor in my last batch I wasn't to crazy about, it faded in the keg in around the same time frame as you described. The clearer the beer got the less I tasted it. I'm thinking it was the yeast in suspension I tasted, I'm filtering my next batch with a plate filter I got from Williams Brewing. I just don't have the patience to wait to get clear beer.

 

[diannotti]

It is a bit cloudy and the bottled brew I did was not. Would cloudy effect flavor though?
I still think the two weeks on CO2 under refrigeration should have been two weeks at room temp to condition more. I'm really confused by this especially when someone indicates it is an issue somehow inherent in kegging, doesn't seem likely but if that is true I would have never built a kegerator and bought kegs - bottling isn't that much of a pain in the ass!

 

[diannotti]

Can anyone else confirm or deny that kegging somehow imparts a metallic or soury off flavor? This doe not seem logical to me but I would like to have a few peoples take on this

 

[BryceL]

I've never had a problem with a metallic taste from my kegs. Several batches I have bottled some, kegged the rest and have not had any off flavors in one and not the other.

 

[IffyG]

I've kegged about 20 batches so far and have never experienced a metallic flavor.

 

[daksin]

Can anyone else confirm or deny that kegging somehow imparts a metallic or soury off flavor? This doe not seem logical to me but I would like to have a few peoples take on this

Definitely not. A huge number of people here keg their homebrew- I don't think they would if it affected their beer in some way. Corny kegs are the same (apart from volume) as standard half barrel kegs. This isn't a keg issue, unless the keg wasn't properly cleaned and sanitized.

 

[flabyboy]

It is a bit cloudy and the bottled brew I did was not. Would cloudy effect flavor though?
I still think the two weeks on CO2 under refrigeration should have been two weeks at room temp to condition more. I'm really confused by this especially when someone indicates it is an issue somehow inherent in kegging, doesn't seem likely but if that is true I would have never built a kegerator and bought kegs - bottling isn't that much of a pain in the ass!

I really don't knowing kegging can cause off flavors, but I do know my beers are not quite as tasty as they were when bottle primed. I have heard of others complaining about the same thing on here. For me, kegging is worth whatever little difference there may be in flavor. Hate bottling

 

[diannotti]

Definitely not. A huge number of people here keg their homebrew- I don't think they would if it affected their beer in some way. Corny kegs are the same (apart from volume) as standard half barrel kegs. This isn't a keg issue, unless the keg wasn't properly cleaned and sanitized.

Brand new kegs and they were sanitized thoroughly.

 

[BryceL]

I'm out of ideas on what the problem could be. All I can say is do up another batch and try it again. Also, to your original question, there is nothing wrong with keging the beer, purging the O2 and letting it condition out of the kegerator for an extra week or two. Either that or you could just leave it in primary for an extra week. Just keep at it and try a few different methods to see what ends up working for you.

 

[Sixpak]

You've mentioned that these are brand new. I'm assuming brand new to you and that they were corny kegs? If that's the case did you replace the O-rings? That's a potential source of infection from old left over soda.

Just about to start the kegging process myself so I'm interested in all these causes and effects.

 

[Jota21]

You say they're clean, but how confident are you that they were rinsed thoroughly enough? I'm wondering if an off-taste could have anything to do with a little bit of residual oxy-clean, etc. in the dip tube?

 

[jayavery]

all things said, you may want to look at the recipe or the type of yeast you pitched. it sounds like you didn't ferment too hot which would bring out some estery/fruity qualities. so once you've answered all of the following:

did i sanitize everything that touched the beer?
did i ferment to high ?
did i do a vigorous enough boil ?
did i clean the beer lines, spout of the kegerator?

if you've handled all of that well .. the beer just needs to mature ..give it a couple of months

 

[jayavery]

I have a kegging series on my beer channel if you want to check em out, it may be pretty informative to some of you:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyQMLg-6Rw4&list=UUzXVt8eSaMOurjhod8bb1KQ&feature=plcp]Kegging Homebrew Part 1/6 - Epic Beer Dude - YouTube[/ame]

 

[diannotti]

You've mentioned that these are brand new. I'm assuming brand new to you and that they were corny kegs? If that's the case did you replace the O-rings? That's a potential source of infection from old left over soda.

Just about to start the kegging process myself so I'm interested in all these causes and effects.

Brand new as in brand new. Not reclaimed, recycled, etc. New. New O rings, new dip tubes, new new.

Gonna brew again today - will try and watch all variables --- Been wondering about the copper immersion coil --- should it be in boil or just after boil - what are risks from what cleaners of adding off flavors etc

 

[Balto]

I have a kegging series on my beer channel if you want to check em out, it may be pretty informative to some of you:

I've watched all of your videos, Very Informative to say the least!

Sorry to change the subject guys. Subscribed.

 

[Sixpak]

Gonna brew again today - will try and watch all variables --- Been wondering about the copper immersion coil --- should it be in boil or just after boil - what are risks from what cleaners of adding off flavors etc

I clean with Oxyclean and sanitize with Starsan, no off flavors. I toss my immersion chiller in for the last 15 minutes of the boil.

 

[diannotti]

I have a new question would welcome any feedback. How do you transfer the cooled wort to the primary. Currently I have been placing my 8 gallon brew kettle on a shelf with 6.5 gal carboy below and funnel inserted - I have been using the spigot/ valve on the brewpot to drain into the funnel / carboy. This seems to aerate and i'm afraid this is a possible contamination source. How do you minimize contamination risk when transferring from brew kettle to carboy ?

 

[Yooper]

I have a new question would welcome any feedback. How do you transfer the cooled wort to the primary. Currently I have been placing my 8 gallon brew kettle on a shelf with 6.5 gal carboy below and funnel inserted - I have been using the spigot/ valve on the brewpot to drain into the funnel / carboy. This seems to aerate and i'm afraid this is a possible contamination source. How do you minimize contamination risk when transferring from brew kettle to carboy ?

You WANT to aerate the wort fully before adding the yeast, and it sounds like you're doing it perfectly. Unless you're brewing where there are swarms of fruitflies and other nasty critters, you should be absolutely fine.

 

[diannotti]

You WANT to aerate the wort fully before adding the yeast, and it sounds like you're doing it perfectly. Unless you're brewing where there are swarms of fruitflies and other nasty critters, you should be absolutely fine.

I guess it was never clear to me if it should only be aerated once INSIDE the carboy...

 

[Yooper]

I guess it was never clear to me if it should only be aerated once INSIDE the carboy...

Oh, no, you can pour and splash through a funnel into the carboy or however you want to. Some people use some tubing to avoid a mess, but not to avoid aeration.

I saw a cool picture on this forum of a guy that make a "venturi" type tube going into his fermenter from his kettle by using a piece of copper and drilling lots of holes in it so the wort would aerate on the way to the fermenter but not splash and make a mess in his wife's kitchen. I thought it was brilliant!

 

[diannotti]

I would think it would be ideal to aerate ( say via o2 stone setup ) after transferred to the carboy.

How does everyone transfer to carboy? most people just splash it through a funnel? I am thinking there is a better way - maybe siphon and then aerate with a stone.

 

[TheBaconator]

I pour it in a plastic bucket, put the lid on and shake it up real good. I always primary in plastic buckets because it's easier to dump your wort in there and they're much easier to clean(no need for a funnel). But if you pour slowly and allow it to slosh around a bit that works some air into the wort also.

 

[flabyboy]

I pour it in a plastic bucket, put the lid on and shake it up real good. I always primary in plastic buckets because it's easier to dump your wort in there and they're much easier to clean(no need for a funnel). But if you pour slowly and allow it to slosh around a bit that works some air into the wort also.

I pour into buckets thru a very fine kitchen strainer. I use hop bags for additions. Otherwise this would be a real PITA. I also use a degassing wand and hook it up to a drill. It will whip the wort real nice

 

[diannotti]

So my latest batch is "done" that is two weeks in the primary, and today is two weeks in the secondary ( 68 degrees throughout).
I had thought about doing keg conditioning with dextrose but I am just not sold on as to why bother.
So my question now is do I transfer to my keg and let it sit two more weeks at room temp, then 1/1.5 weeks on CO2 or should I just leave in the secondary for two more weeks at 68 ?
I guess my question boils down to will my beer condition "better" in the keg at room temp, or in the secondary at 68?? Third option would be allow the secondary temp to come up.... any thoughts?