Reasons to go all grain vs extract??

[ncbrewer]

I started all-grain a few years ago. Had to quit because of back trouble - the longer brew days were too much. But my biggest concern while I was doing all-grain was the grain storage. Even in Zip-Locks inside a bin, I could still smell the grain. I worried that it would attract mice or roaches. Has anybody had a problem with this?

 

[homemaltster]

It seems like people jump to AG so quickly. After you've made that big transition, where do you go from there??

 

[user 227424]

No, maybe not. Many grains can be steeped, while a partial mash means actually replacing some of the extract with base grains and doing a mash (holding a prescribed amount of grain in a prescribed amount of water at a prescribed temperature, so convert the grains' starches into fermentable sugar). Some grains are ready to be steeped, sort of pre-mashed so to speak, so that they don't need to be mashed. Using them provides color, flavor, and some fermentable sugars without needing base malt for conversion.

Ok so the 2Lbs of grains in my recipe(light wheat, torrified wheat, & Vienna malt) are likely there for color/flavor, not so much sugar. Gotcha, partial mash is actually part way to AG. Thanks for clarifying that!

 

[eadavis80]

One thing I'm not sold on is that all-grain is "much cheaper" than extract. It might be true if you're buying grains in bulk, but if you shop online vendors (NB, AIH, etc.) and look at a kit in both all-grain and extract versions, you'll see about a $2 difference/kit. I ENJOY making all-grain beers more - I just enjoy the mashing, etc. I just think the process is more fun, but I'm a teacher and have summers off so I do my all-grain brewing in the summer when time allows. It's not much longer a brew day, but it is more time consuming. That being said, IME, the process is more fun and it's all about having fun. I've made very good beer with both methods though.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so the 2Lbs of grains in my recipe(light wheat, torrified wheat, & Vienna malt) are likely there for color/flavor, not so much sugar. Gotcha, partial mash is actually part way to AG. Thanks for clarifying that!

Actually, wheat malt and Vienna malt DO need to be mashed to convert, so in that case it is a partial mash. You could add a couple more pounds, and reduce the amount of extract used and do an even bigger partial mash if you'd like.

 

[imasickboy]

It seems like people jump to AG so quickly. After you've made that big transition, where do you go from there??

We keep practicing our craft and trying to get better and better at it.

Water chemistry is the next logical "creative" step.

But mostly we just buy more brewing "toys" that we don't need.

The cost "savings" in all grain brewing is really bull****, because every penny we save by using cheaper ingredients gets spent on something else, whether it's something we need, or just something shiny we want.

 

[ericbw]

Kits are overpriced for the ingredients.

As for cost, if you make a 3 gallon beer at 1.045, that's 3 pounds of extract - about $12 without shipping.

To get 1.045 at 75% efficiency, you need 5 pounds of grain. That's less than $10 (possibly way less).

That's how I get 75% for grain cost compared to extract.

 

[user 227424]

Actually, wheat malt and Vienna malt DO need to be mashed to convert, so in that case it is a partial mash. You could add a couple more pounds, and reduce the amount of extract used and do an even bigger partial mash if you'd like.

Is "mashing" a different thing than the hour soak in 160 deg F water that my instructions call "steeping"?

 

[Yooper]

Is "mashing" a different thing than the hour soak in 160 deg F water that my instructions call "steeping"?

No- but 160 degrees is too warm. You want to hold it at 152-154 or so. It sounds like you have generic steeping instructions, but yet have mashing grains.

 

[user 227424]

Do you have this book?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381888/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Get this book. Read it. Then read it 3 more times. Then read it 5 more times and bookmark the living s.. out of it.

Then keep it within arms reach every brew day. All of life's questions are answered within this book.

I'll get it. Thanks!

 

[55x11]

One thing I'm not sold on is that all-grain is "much cheaper" than extract. It might be true if you're buying grains in bulk, but if you shop online vendors (NB, AIH, etc.) and look at a kit in both all-grain and extract versions, you'll see about a $2 difference/kit. I ENJOY making all-grain beers more - I just enjoy the mashing, etc. I just think the process is more fun, but I'm a teacher and have summers off so I do my all-grain brewing in the summer when time allows. It's not much longer a brew day, but it is more time consuming. That being said, IME, the process is more fun and it's all about having fun. I've made very good beer with both methods though.

I don't buy kits online, but my neighbor does and I find prices reasonable especially for someone who doesn't like going to the store and buying grains, milling them etc. (You do pay for shipping though). But it's still more expensive.

So I went to random website you mentioned, NorthernBrewer, and looked up a few of their recipes. First one is Grapefruit Pulpin (Ballast Point Sculping knock-off).

Grain bill:
- 13 lbs Rahr 2-row
- 0.5 lbs Dingemans Cara 20
- 0.25 lbs Briess Caramel 20

At my LBS this would cost me $.99 for 2-row ($0.80 if bought grains in bulk at LHBS - $40 for 50 lbs which I often do) and let's say $1.60 for specialty malts, so $1.20 = total of $14.20 for grains.
It includes 6 oz of hops which is where real costs add up. I pay a little over $1 per oz of hops but I do buy them in bulk. It's probably closer to $1.50/oz if you don't. Let's say $9 if retail, and $6 if bulk. So total $23.20 (or ~$18 if bulk) - the all-grain kit cost $36.51. Extract $39. If you subtract hops cost, it's probably something $14 all-grain at LHBS ($12 if bulk) vs $27 extract.

Let's pick something less hoppy. Like their Red Ale:
- 7.5 lbs. Rahr 2-Row Pale
- 0.75 lbs. Belgian Caramel Pils
- 0.25 lbs. Briess Special Roast
- 0.125 lbs. Belgian Biscuit malt
- 0.125 lbs. English Chocolate Malt

That's 7.5*1.00+1.25*1.6=$9.5 for grain (or $8 if 2-row is bought in bulk).
It has 1.5 oz of fairly common hops, which would cost me $1.50, maybe $2, for a total of $11 (or $9.50 if 2-row is bulk). The cost of all-grain recipe is $25.51 - it's one of the least expensive kits on their site, and $28.51 for extract. So again, subtracting hops, which cost $2 or so, it's the difference of $11 (or $9.50 if bulk) vs. $26 - factor of 2.5 or so.


I am not knocking on recipe kits - I think those are great for saving time, and at some point I may use them even if they cost a little more (my time is worth more) - I just enjoy assembling the recipe myself without being restricted by the kit (which is why I don't want to do extracts in the first place). I like to brew 10G or 15G batches and do my own design recipes.

I also should say that extract prices vary greatly, in my LHBS it's about $3.5-4 per lb, while grain is $1. In some places they are closer, maybe $2.5-$3 for extract and $1.50 for grain. But extract is almost always more expensive, maybe not by a factor of 3-4 but a factor of 2 or so. Even taking into account efficiency it's still more expensive.

It is a bit surprising why extract kits are not marked up nearly as much as all-grain kits.

Anyways, cost is just a minor part that I wanted to bring up. My last extract beer was a russian imperial stout (11% ABV) that cost me something like $70 in extract bill for 5G batch, while I brewed similar recipe for <$20 all-grain bill.

I think the biggest difference for me is having a palette of 100 different brushes (grains), as opposed to be limited to rough RGB tricolor pixelated images that extract provides.

 

[eadavis80]

I don't buy kits online, but my neighbor does and I find prices reasonable especially for someone who doesn't like going to the store and buying grains, milling them etc. (You do pay for shipping though). But it's still more expensive.

So I went to random website you mentioned, NorthernBrewer, and looked up a few of their recipes. First one is Grapefruit Pulpin (Ballast Point Sculping knock-off).

Grain bill:
- 13 lbs Rahr 2-row
- 0.5 lbs Dingemans Cara 20
- 0.25 lbs Briess Caramel 20

At my LBS this would cost me $.99 for 2-row ($0.80 if bought grains in bulk at LHBS - $40 for 50 lbs which I often do) and let's say $1.60 for specialty malts, so $1.20 = total of $14.20 for grains.
It includes 6 oz of hops which is where real costs add up. I pay a little over $1 per oz of hops but I do buy them in bulk. It's probably closer to $1.50/oz if you don't. Let's say $9 if retail, and $6 if bulk. So total $23.20 (or ~$18 if bulk) - the all-grain kit cost $36.51. Extract $39. If you subtract hops cost, it's probably something $14 all-grain at LHBS ($12 if bulk) vs $27 extract.

Let's pick something less hoppy. Like their Red Ale:
- 7.5 lbs. Rahr 2-Row Pale
- 0.75 lbs. Belgian Caramel Pils
- 0.25 lbs. Briess Special Roast
- 0.125 lbs. Belgian Biscuit malt
- 0.125 lbs. English Chocolate Malt

That's 7.5*1.00+1.25*1.6=$9.5 for grain (or $8 if 2-row is bought in bulk).
It has 1.5 oz of fairly common hops, which would cost me $1.50, maybe $2, for a total of $11 (or $9.50 if 2-row is bulk). The cost of all-grain recipe is $25.51 - it's one of the least expensive kits on their site, and $28.51 for extract. So again, subtracting hops, which cost $2 or so, it's the difference of $11 (or $9.50 if bulk) vs. $26 - factor of 2.5 or so.


I am not knocking on recipe kits - I think those are great for saving time, and at some point I may use them even if they cost a little more (my time is worth more) - I just enjoy assembling the recipe myself without being restricted by the kit (which is why I don't want to do extracts in the first place). I like to brew 10G or 15G batches and do my own design recipes.

I also should say that extract prices vary greatly, in my LHBS it's about $3.5-4 per lb, while grain is $1. In some places they are closer, maybe $2.5-$3 for extract and $1.50 for grain. But extract is almost always more expensive, maybe not by a factor of 3-4 but a factor of 2 or so. Even taking into account efficiency it's still more expensive.

It is a bit surprising why extract kits are not marked up nearly as much as all-grain kits.

Anyways, cost is just a minor part that I wanted to bring up. My last extract beer was a russian imperial stout (11% ABV) that cost me something like $70 in extract bill for 5G batch, while I brewed similar recipe for <$20 all-grain bill.

I think the biggest difference for me is having a palette of 100 different brushes (grains), as opposed to be limited to rough RGB tricolor pixelated images that extract provides.

Yeah, if you can get grain for $1/pound it's definitely cheaper - considerably. I just used NB's prices for 2-row which are $1.79/pound and my LHBS charges about $2/pound. Anyway - yeah - all grain is cheaper. Just in MY experience, I have not found it to be MUCH cheaper. That being said, like I said, I do find the BREWING PROCESS to be a lot more fun.

 

[ericbw]

And it IS true that equipment costs will go up, just because it is interesting. Extract doesn't present as many options for gear.

 

[catdaddy66]

I read one sentence that nudged me over the fence into the all grain party...

"You can make good beer with extract, but you can craft excellent beer with all grain!"

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, if you can get grain for $1/pound it's definitely cheaper - considerably. I just used NB's prices for 2-row which are $1.79/pound and my LHBS charges about $2/pound. Anyway - yeah - all grain is cheaper. Just in MY experience, I have not found it to be MUCH cheaper. That being said, like I said, I do find the BREWING PROCESS to be a lot more fun.

I brew 10 gallon sized batches, and a bag of grain (50#) is enough for two batches for me. I buy a sack of grain for $38. http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/801109.htm

That's 76 cents/pound.

I also buy my hops by the pound, and that is WAY cheaper as well ($8-15 per pound).

If I was going to buy dry malt extract instead of the grain, I'd need 30 pounds of dry malt extract for the same recipe to replace the 50# of grain. At $9.79 for three pounds at the same store (a great price!), that's 97.79. That's 2.5 times as much, and that's a great price.

At Northern Brewer, dry malt extract is $5 per pound! That's $180 for the extract.

So, for larger volumes, all-grain brewing is significantly cheaper.

That said, if I was brewing one gallon or three gallons once a month, I wouldn't try to economize all that much. But with the bigger sized batches, the cost savings is significant.

Even doing extract though, you can save money. You can reuse yeast (I buy yeast twice per year), buy hops by the pound and freeze, and buy some grain to replace some of the extract in a batch.

My biggest cost, though, is the grain. Paying $38 for a sack is a great bargain compared to $100-180 for extract for the same amount of fermentables.

 

[normonster]

Less filling. Tastes great.

 

[Homercidal]

Chicks dig All Grain brewers.

No seriously. They love to eat the spent grain.

Even the grown up chickens love it.

 

[DromJohn]

Hey, you're Boog Powell.

My stock pot can take up to 6 lbs grain, prefer 5 lbs. Stock pot is not a unitasker. Sometimes we make stock, or big soups, und so weiter. Bigger pot probably would be for beer only and would be tough to heat up, and my back wouldn't like it. If I was to upgrade, the first item would be a Thermidor stovetop (had one at the old house). Again, a Thermidor stovetop is not a unitasker.

I am not a big drinker (don't need ten gallon batches and I give a lot of my product away) and I brew only every six weeks. Since 2009, I have yet to use 55 lbs of any single grain, nor 1 lb of any single hops. (Admittedly lots of LME.) There's no cost savings that wouldn't be dwarfed by the cost of bigger pot, more gas, shipping, storage and milling.

So, I'm a partial something brewer. There's enough control.

YMMV.

Tastes great, still filling.

 

[Twotaureanbrewing]

Any jerk can make wort....

Its making a good beer thats the trick

 

[Sailingeric]

IMO, there are only 3 good reasons to use extract:

- shortage or lack of available time to do all grain
- shortage or lack of funds to buy required equipment for all grain
- shortage or lack of space to store equipment for all grain

.

AG is a little bit longer but once you start mashing, you can do other chores to keep the SWMBO happy. There is not much more cost, considering you are saving 25-50% over extract. 3 or 4 batches and you have offset the cost of the cooler to mash in- the cost savings alone makes me wish I gone AG sooner. The only thing extra a bought was a mill as I was less than happy of the crush from my LHBS, I had a cooler I was able to use. I don't have the multi tiered system for AG, I just use my same pot, pour the water into the mash tun, and then drain into the same pot when it is done, so extra space used up is for the cooler, which you could put some the smaller brewing items so the space usage may be a wash.

 

[homemaltster]

We keep practicing our craft and trying to get better and better at it.

Water chemistry is the next logical "creative" step.

I totally understand the allure of AG. But is water chemistry much fun in itself or is it just one of those dull but necessary tasks to make your beer better?

 

[imasickboy]

IMO, water chemistry is not fun, nor always necessary. Designing the rest of the recipe has still not lost its allure for me, so there really is not that "burning need for something else" that can lead someone to jump into water design.

There are an infinite combination of grains, adjuncts, hops, yeast, and other additives to explore before I find the need to spend a ton of time on water. (Not to mention the variations in process that can alter the beers significantly.)

If you're only brewing a single style all the time, and limiting yourself to similar recipes and processes, then water would be an excellent subject to immerse yourself in.

 

[schematix]

IMO, water chemistry is not fun, nor always necessary.

I would debate you on the fun part, but I concede that is personal preference.

And while not always necessary, it COULD be necessary, but you would never know until you looked into it. And if you spend a few hours reading around here you can find some really easy shortcuts to dramatically improve your beers without needing a grand understanding of water chemistry. Just the basics will suffice.

Unless you're really lucky with your water you're are likely disregarding a potential big improvement.

 

[user 227424]

Chicks dig All Grain brewers.

No seriously. They love to eat the spent grain.

Even the grown up chickens love it.

This is true! We've got a hundred layer hens and they devour it in a feeding frenzy

 

[ericbw]

I brew 10 gallon sized batches, and a bag of grain (50#) is enough for two batches for me. I buy a sack of grain for $38. http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/801109.htm



That's 76 cents/pound.



I also buy my hops by the pound, and that is WAY cheaper as well ($8-15 per pound).



If I was going to buy dry malt extract instead of the grain, I'd need 30 pounds of dry malt extract for the same recipe to replace the 50# of grain. At $9.79 for three pounds at the same store (a great price!), that's 97.79. That's 2.5 times as much, and that's a great price.



At Northern Brewer, dry malt extract is $5 per pound! That's $180 for the extract.



So, for larger volumes, all-grain brewing is significantly cheaper.



That said, if I was brewing one gallon or three gallons once a month, I wouldn't try to economize all that much. But with the bigger sized batches, the cost savings is significant.



Even doing extract though, you can save money. You can reuse yeast (I buy yeast twice per year), buy hops by the pound and freeze, and buy some grain to replace some of the extract in a batch.



My biggest cost, though, is the grain. Paying $38 for a sack is a great bargain compared to $100-180 for extract for the same amount of fermentables.

Do you pay shipping on the bulk grain?

 

[Yooper]

Do you pay shipping on the bulk grain?

I try to pick it up when I travel, to avoid shipping. Still, Ritebrew's rates for shipping are reasonable if I have to have it shipped(not often). I'm going to Chicago next week and will pick up three sacks of grain and other things while I'm passing through.

 

[gitano]

Here'whileback, I made some 'beer' by using birch (Betula nana) sap. It occurred to me after a couple of batches of extract-derived beers that "extract" was just "syrup", and I had a ready and interesting source of syrup/"extract" in all the birch trees on my property. (FYI, it takes about 50 gallons of maple sap to make a gallon of maple syrup, while it takes about 100 gallons of birch sap to make on gallon of birch syrup.) That was the best 5 gallons of beer I have ever made, but MAN! that was A LOT OF WORK! I was married to that thing for about a week!

So here's my question: Was that "pop tart" beer because it was made from "extract", or was it "artisan" beer because I had to work so hard at it? (Maybe it wasn't even beer!)

Paul

 

[mongoose33]

I try to pick it up when I travel, to avoid shipping. Still, Ritebrew's rates for shipping are reasonable if I have to have it shipped(not often). I'm going to Chicago next week and will pick up three sacks of grain and other things while I'm passing through.

I do the same thing in the other direction. I was up to Green Bay and Door County last weekend, put my order in on Thursday, picked it up on the way back on Saturday.

 

[eadavis80]

I brew 10 gallon sized batches, and a bag of grain (50#) is enough for two batches for me. I buy a sack of grain for $38. http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/801109.htm

That's 76 cents/pound.

I also buy my hops by the pound, and that is WAY cheaper as well ($8-15 per pound).

If I was going to buy dry malt extract instead of the grain, I'd need 30 pounds of dry malt extract for the same recipe to replace the 50# of grain. At $9.79 for three pounds at the same store (a great price!), that's 97.79. That's 2.5 times as much, and that's a great price.

At Northern Brewer, dry malt extract is $5 per pound! That's $180 for the extract.

So, for larger volumes, all-grain brewing is significantly cheaper.

That said, if I was brewing one gallon or three gallons once a month, I wouldn't try to economize all that much. But with the bigger sized batches, the cost savings is significant.

Even doing extract though, you can save money. You can reuse yeast (I buy yeast twice per year), buy hops by the pound and freeze, and buy some grain to replace some of the extract in a batch.

My biggest cost, though, is the grain. Paying $38 for a sack is a great bargain compared to $100-180 for extract for the same amount of fermentables.

Yes, Yooper - those are great savings, which is why I wrote this originally, "One thing I'm not sold on is that all-grain is "much cheaper" than extract. It might be true if you're buying grains in bulk, but if you shop online vendors (NB, AIH, etc.) and look at a kit in both all-grain and extract versions, you'll see about a $2 difference/kit."

The reason I don't go that route is because I don't have my own grain mill and I'm not brewing all-grain enough to justify the cost of one, even though I know LONG TERM it would make up for itself cost wise. I don't think my LHBS would allow me to buy a 50-pound bag of 2-row and then measure out 10 pounds at a time, bring 10-pounds up there and them have them grind it for me, but maybe I should look into that...

I do reuse yeast a fair amount, however. The only issue I have with that is that I like to brew such a variety of styles I have a hard time using the same yeast strain more than once in a six-month window besides maybe Safale 05. That's my time limit for reusing yeast, though I know others have used harvested yeast much older. In fact, the other day I just dumped out a bunch of old mason jars simply because I know I won't be brewing certain styles the rest of the year.

 

[imasickboy]

Consider a corona mill. They work very well, and are dirt cheap.