I think Brulo accidentally put the wrong explanation under the wrong quote. I think he agrees that 1.037 would be 50%, for what it's worth.
I think what he's saying is that those 7 gravity points aren't a big deal in terms of fermentation time. With the timings involved, it's maybe a day? Unless you're on a big time crunch, who cares about the one day. Plus, all things considered, you should avoid opening your bucket/carboy as much as possible.
@denny
I suppose it is a bit pointless to log on to HBT in the hope of trying to learn new things. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll be sure to bear that in mind the next time I don't understand something entirely or realize others have a slightly differing take on it. What was I thinking?!
I hope you learned that it's something you don't need to obsess about. That was my point.
But #2 is a big fail. Lagering cannot just be skipped -- they virtually always improve dramatically in the first month. A suggestion to skip it is quite concerning, to put it politely.
Well obviously I have tried drinking unlagered lagers, and dozens of times. It doesn't end well. The only difference between my and this method is that I wait until 80-90% attenuated, instead of 50%, before ramping up to the d-rest. Is the claim here that ramping up sooner to the d-rest somehow eliminates the need for lagering? That seems an unlikely cause-and-effect, but if that's what folks are claiming, I'll definitely give it a shot.You should try it before offering your wisdom. In my experience doing it both ways, the methods described in this thread will get you 97% of the way there in 3 weeks. There is marginal improvement after another 4-6 weeks of lagering, but it is no way dramatic.
The time savings here boils down to just two differences from how we've all been taught to make lagers:
(1) Ramp up for the diacetyl rest once you've hit 50% attenuation instead of 80%; and
(2) Don't bother to lager for 4-8 weeks; just give it a week.
Certainly item #1 would save a couple days, perhaps without hurting the beer. But #2 is a big fail. Lagering cannot just be skipped -- they virtually always improve dramatically in the first month. A suggestion to skip it is quite concerning, to put it politely.
Really good stuff. I am going to try it out once I get my brewjacket (in a few weeks) http://www.brewjacket.com/
The temp swings have been purported by some to be a cause of off flavors. My guess is your beer will be fine. Cheers!This thread made me so happy. Yesterday around noon, the power at my house went out. In my garage, my lone power outlet in the wall is GFCI, so when the power kicked backed on, my fermentation refrigerator did not. My lager (using Wyeast 2206) was fermenting happily at 50F, but when I got home from work it had raised to 56F. Turns out I was 5 days in and at 1.026 when I got home (OG 1.055). Unintentionally, I guess I'm using this method. Went ahead and cooled to to 54-55F and will bump it up over the next couple of days. This is my first lager so can't wait to taste the results. I still might not tap it until September, but who can honestly stay out of their keg that long?
Well, I'm eating crow. My helles came out great.
I tried this method for the first time about a month ago. it was a total disaster. why? I use better bottles and the extreme cold crashing caused the volume to contract and crush in the sides of my better bottle like a smashed beer can. luckily it did not crack, but to get it to pop back out I had to pull out the stopper which violently decompressed everything. I couldn't have shook it up more if I hit it with my car. lesson learned, next time I transfer to a keg before lagering.
Based on my personal results, I've have to disagree. I've judged a BOS lager that was never lagered at all! Could you tell us about your results when you tried this method?
I'm a bit suspicious about curves that show sugar (extract) concentration jumping back up as fermentation progresses. Does anyone have access to the source material from which Kai pulled these graphs (I suspect it is in German.) I'd like to know if they are based on actual measurements, or are calculated or conceptual curves.Ok, I just tried this idea of ramping up to the d-rest at 50% attenuation, and got the entirely predictable result of high diacetyl. As we all know, diacetyl is increased at higher fermentation temps. And this can be a real problem since diacetyl often won't show up until a couple weeks after kegging or bottling (which happened here). I've used this W-34/70 yeast several times and never had any diacetyl until trying this.
So IMHO, fermenting (half) warm isn't worth the risk. And let's remember this routine doesn't show up on that graphic of typical routines cited by braukaiser :
As I've learned time & time again, cutting corners on a lager is a fool's errand. But for those who choose to ramp up at 50% attenuation, make sure to conduct a diacetyl test before cold crashing.
Ok, I just tried this idea of ramping up to the d-rest at 50% attenuation, and got the entirely predictable result of high diacetyl. As we all know, diacetyl is increased at higher fermentation temps. And this can be a real problem since diacetyl often won't show up until a couple weeks after kegging or bottling (which happened here). I've used this W-34/70 yeast several times and never had any diacetyl until trying this.
As I've learned time & time again, cutting corners on a lager is a fool's errand. But for those who choose to ramp up at 50% attenuation, make sure to conduct a diacetyl test before cold crashing.
@doug293cz
I believe the blips in extract content in the graphs from Kai's site relate to the addition of new wort via kreusening.
The graphs are from technical university of Vienna.
Each graph is explained in detail on his site. On my phone so I don't have the link. My thumbs are too fat to get it in my reply.
Understood, and that's why I referred to it only as "risky," not "doomed to fail with 100% certainty."I understand your hesitation, I was extremely hesitant at first too, but I can say that my helles came out with no diacetyl.
...
Clearly my d-rest wasn't long enough. Usually a 3-4 day hold at 64f after fermentation ends is enough, but not this time (likely due to the greater diacetyl production at higher temps)....
When did you try the sample? How long did you let it rest at the elevated temperature? The diacetyl should be reduced at the elevated temperature once the yeast finishes. This method is really just an early diacetyl rest.
You call it "early d-rest," while I call it "fermenting hot"....
This method is really just an early diacetyl rest.
Understood, and that's why I referred to it only as "risky," not "doomed to fail with 100% certainty." Clearly my d-rest wasn't long enough. Usually a 3-4 days at 64f is enough, but not this time (likely due to the greater diacetyl production at higher temps).
Those are fighting words sir, guns at dawn in the town square.You call it "early d-rest," while I call it "fermenting hot".
I don't think it's quite as simple as tasting the beer for diacetyl before cooling it. As White Labs explains (link) : "Even though the diacetyl can't be tasted, however, the beer may contain high levels of the precursor, acetolactate, which can be converted to diacetyl." So a proper diacetyl test is needed. I almost never have diacetyl problems, so I don't bother. Wish I had done it here though.As long as you sample your beer before cooling it shouldn't be risky. Like you say, you likely get an increased diacetyl production in the initial fermentation, but that's why the method calls for 5-7 days instead of the usual 2-4. I actually was able to make a helles that got 3rd place in competition without a diacetyl rest at all, just by fermenting with the correct pitch rate and keeping it cold at all times.
...
Understood, and that's why I referred to it only as "risky," not "doomed to fail with 100% certainty."
Clearly my d-rest wasn't long enough. Usually a 3-4 day hold at 64f after fermentation ends is enough, but not this time (likely due to the greater diacetyl production at higher temps).
You call it "early d-rest," while I call it "fermenting hot".
I recently listened to a couple pro brewers on a couple AHA conference seminars about brewing lagers and they recommended D rests but only raising the temp a few degrees toward the end of fermentation. I guess it makes sense if you still have active fermentation why raise it up to Ale temps and risk fruity flavors? It seems that most here are ramping up to the mid 60's. I do mine at 60 for 3-4 days and haven't had any issues yet but I may reduce that a few degrees.
where did this idea of higher temps causing diacetyl come from? Higher temps mean more active yeast which means reduced diacetyl. I don't often need to do d rests, due to pitching adequate quantities of healthy yeast, but when I do, 68-70 works just fine for me.
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