Quick 48hour fermentation

[phenphen]

Hey all, I'm brand new with all this and here's what I got so far:

I did a a blonde ale using 5lbs dry extract and 28oz of specialty grains. Checked the OG, and it was pretty close to the recipe. (Mine was ~1.048; recipe calls for 1.046)

So I've read a bunch of the threads with newbies concerned with no bubbling, and I just took the veteran suggestions to take a hydrometer reading. Well, I have a satellite going alongside my fermenter. Looks clear, all the yeast seems to have dropped to the bottom, and I'm not seeing the yeast reacting like it was the past two days. I checked the FG on the satellite and it read around 1.010, with the recipe calling for 1.011. I know this is abnormal, but I've been reading the warmer your temp is, the harder the yeast will work. Perhaps this is quick because the beer is so "light", as well?

If your guys' suggestion is to keep it for at least a week or even the norm of forgetting about it and leaving it a month, what are the yeast doing to change the character of the brew?

Thanks

 

[theredben]

Firstly, good idea on having a satellite fermentation, it keeps your main beer uncontaminated when you need samples. You have to remember though, satellite (also called "forced attenuation") fermentations are not always exactly accurate to what the main fermenter is doing. They can be a few points off.

Secondly, you are being waaaaay to concerned with hydrometer readings. From a homebrewer point of view, 1.011 IS 1.010. We cannot reliably tell the difference. Commercial brewers have tools called "desitometers" that ARE that accurate.

Most of the "work" in fermentation is in the first 24-48 hours, then it takes around 4-20 days for the yeast to "clean up" any leftovers (acetaldehyde, fusels, diacetyl), and then fall to the bottom of your bucket. The beer also begins to mellow out, with a reduction in hop aroma/bitterness, and an increase in percieved maltiness.

 

[Sarrsipius]

It's not very surprising to see the bulk of your primary fermentation completed in a couple days with a OG of 1.048. The yeast have eaten all the "easy to digest" sugars but they will continue to work even after your gravity stabilizes. During the first few days they produce several compounds that they will go back and "clean up" after the primary fermentation completes. Leaving the beer in the fermenter with the yeast for a couple weeks will give you a much cleaner final product with less off flavors.

It's generally accepted that 2-4 weeks on the yeast does more good than harm. Beyond that you could start to see off flavors develop as the yeast die off.

I'd suggest waiting at least 7 days from pitching to bottling/kegging even if your gravity has stabilized. I primary all my beers at least 2 or 3 weeks and have never had a a problem.

 

[phenphen]

So, does the gravity change between the two stages the yeast goes through? I'm only wondering if there's a realiable way to tell the end time of beer production...how are the big boys bottling in 4 days?

 

[solbes]

Clean up, clean up. Let them do their thing. Don't touch it for a minimum of 2 weeks. 3 would be better if you can wait.

Also I'm wondering what kind of temps this beer saw as it was fermenting? The hotter it is, the faster it is generally. But it also makes more esters, fusels, and phenolics. Plus some other things the yeast have to clean up.

 

[Sarrsipius]

So, does the gravity change between the two stages the yeast goes through? I'm only wondering if there's a realiable way to tell the end time of beer production...how are the big boys bottling in 4 days?

It would be unlikely to see a gravity change. The big boys do all sorts of things that home brewers usually don't. Specialized yeast strains, filtering, ideal pitching rates and fermentation conditions, etc. etc.

 

[BenVanned]

What is this satellite you speak of?

 

[JonM]

In addition to the clean-up discussed above, the longer you leave it, the more yeast will drop out of suspension, giving you clearer beer. In my experience, 3-4 weeks with a flocculant yeast like US-05 is plenty to make it nice and clear.

 

[phenphen]

Hypothetically, if it's already clear (like my satellite), then can't I "age" the brews in bottles? I mean, if if the specific gravity isn't changing, and there's apparently no pressure being released....how is aging in a bottle different than a fermenting container? I understand that the yeast is "reinvigorated" when you introduce DME or a sugar source when you bottle, but after this, couldn't I age them at room temperature in bottles??? Am I to understand that the yeast settling on the bottom of your fermenting container is still alive and digesting secondary metabolites? If this is the case, then I don't see this working, but if there is still live yeast in solution that is in fact digesting the secondary metabolites or "cleaning up", then why shouldn't we be able to age in bottles at room temp?

 

[Hang Glider]

Is no one asking about fermentation temperatures? If you ferment in the 80s, it will take off like a rocket. But your beer could be better.

keep it (the wort itself) within the yeast manufacturer's guidelines for temperature. Low side if you can, to account for the metabolic activity.

 

[Bob]

Some observations:

1. Leave it alone. Beer matures more quickly in bulk. Contact with the yeast bed facilitates this.

2. Stop using a "satellite". It's worthless, because there is not only no guarantee the ferments will be exactly alike, there's every chance they'll be entirely dissimilar. Stop sweating contamination - because you're going to develop good sanitation techniques like a brewer should - and take real gravity readings.

3. 48 hours is totally unsurprising given a decent pitch. Long, slow ferments have become the de facto homebrew standard because most homebrewers underpitch by a long shot (vials and smack packs don't even come close to pitchable amounts, even when they're brand new). Dry yeast sachets come closer, at 11g on average. 1048 is, oddly enough, the de facto reference gravity for pitching calculations (12 degrees Plato). A good pitch at 12P should be done in 36 to 48 hours.

4. The "reliable" method professional brewers use to gauge the end of the active ferment is the same we use: A hydrometer. As I wrote in 3 above, a proper pitch in a well-brewed, well-aerated, medium-gravity wort will ferment relatively quickly. From there it's crash-chill and age for a bit. Most craft-brewers leave their ales in the tank for 14 days or so; 7 to 10 of that is cold, like as close to 32F as it can go. Then it's filtered and packaged.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[BryanJ]

2. Stop using a "satellite". It's worthless, because there is not only no guarantee the ferments will be exactly alike, there's every chance they'll be entirely dissimilar. Stop sweating contamination - because you're going to develop good sanitation techniques like a brewer should - and take real gravity readings.

When did this become a thing? I see new members advocating for this crap a lot recently.

 

[phenphen]

1. Leave it alone. Beer matures more quickly in bulk. Contact with the yeast bed facilitates this.
Bob

How does contact with the yeast bed facilitate secondary metabolite digestion? Does the yeast bed send a signal to the active yeast that the solution is losing nutrients?

2. Stop using a "satellite". It's worthless, because there is not only no guarantee the ferments will be exactly alike, there's every chance they'll be entirely dissimilar. Stop sweating contamination - because you're going to develop good sanitation techniques like a brewer should - and take real gravity readings.
Bob

Yeah, I didn't really like having one either, I was just told to keep one for whatever reason; Couldn't you add a hydrometer in a sight tube that continually monitors the specific gravity?

3. 48 hours is totally unsurprising given a decent pitch. Long, slow ferments have become the de facto homebrew standard because most homebrewers underpitch by a long shot (vials and smack packs don't even come close to pitchable amounts, even when they're brand new). Dry yeast sachets come closer, at 11g on average. 1048 is, oddly enough, the de facto reference gravity for pitching calculations (12 degrees Plato). A good pitch at 12P should be done in 36 to 48 hours.
Bob

I assumed as much, but the thing is, Wyeast advertises their smack packs are made for 5 gallons rated at a OG of 1.060 or less. I used the 1056 American Ale yeast...

4. The "reliable" method professional brewers use to gauge the end of the active ferment is the same we use: A hydrometer. As I wrote in 3 above, a proper pitch in a well-brewed, well-aerated, medium-gravity wort will ferment relatively quickly. From there it's crash-chill and age for a bit. Most craft-brewers leave their ales in the tank for 14 days or so; 7 to 10 of that is cold, like as close to 32F as it can go. Then it's filtered and packaged.
Bob

This is to kill all the remaining yeast, no? Can I crash-chill if I ferment under pressure in a closed system? I can filter and package in bottles under pressure as well, yes?

 

[Bob]

How does contact with the yeast bed facilitate secondary metabolite digestion? Does the yeast bed send a signal to the active yeast that the solution is losing nutrients?

I confess I'm not as well versed in the science as I'd like, so I can't quote you chapter and verse.

This has to do with the metabolic cycle. When the nutrients are depleted, the yeast begin to go dormant, entering another metabolic phase. During that phase, they tend to take up byproducts from earlier phases. This is how diacetyl is reduced during a "diacetyl rest" in lager brewing.

Suffice it to say, beer matures when in contact with yeast, and more quickly when in contact with a significant proportion of yeast in a "yeast cake". When yeast is removed from beer, maturation ceases.

Yeah, I didn't really like having one either, I was just told to keep one for whatever reason; Couldn't you add a hydrometer in a sight tube that continually monitors the specific gravity?

No. You want a uniform sample, from the mass of the beer. That means a sample from the tank, not a sight glass - which can't be mixed very well with the bulk of the beer - and for damned sure not a totally separate small container. Fermenting beer churns and blorps and MOVES. This facilitates mixing, making the bulk tank uniform.

It's the same principle as any other type of scientific sampling. Geologists, when they want to test soil, don't just scrape the surface. They take a core, drilling deep. The for damned sure don't take a sample and keep testing the sample after the fact, assuming the sample will show the exact same characteristics as the locale from which the sample is taken! Like a "satellite fermenter", the two environments are dramatically different.

Look, just take a freaking sample. If you're that concerned about loss, factor it in when developing a recipe. The extra pint to quart you'll need for gravity sampling is not going to impact the recipe that much.

I assumed as much, but the thing is, Wyeast advertises their smack packs are made for 5 gallons rated at a OG of 1.060 or less.

They are either mistaken, overly optimistic, or highly euphemistic with they write "1.060 or less", because it's really ~1.028 or less. Hey, I've done the cell counts; methylene blue doesn't lie! If you don't believe me, though, believe JZ.

This is to kill all the remaining yeast, no?

No. But it does send them dormant. Freezing will generally kill yeast, as ice crystals will tend to burst the cell walls. But mere cold will not. Sending them dormant will make them flock, which makes them precipitate. Thus chilling leads to bright beer.

Can I crash-chill if I ferment under pressure in a closed system?

Yes. Chilling regime is not dependent on fermentation mechanics.

I can filter and package in bottles under pressure as well, yes?

Well, seeing as you must filter under pressure - how else is the beer going to get through the filter medium? - and after filtering you'll be pushing force-carbonated beer through a bottling device, logically the answer is clearly "yes".

When did this become a thing? I see new members advocating for this crap a lot recently.

I wish I knew who started it. Probably one of the homebrew messiahs misspoke on a podcast or something, and now it's gotten writ back into The Gospel. Never mind that it's utter balderdash; it makes a certain amount of logical sense, after all. I'm going to jump up and down on it without apology or remorse, however, because it's so stupid. I only hope the mods will, in time, forgive me.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[phenphen]

This is how diacetyl is reduced during a "diacetyl rest" in lager brewing.

So both Ales and Lagers have a "diacetyl rest"? I.E. All species of yeast?

Suffice it to say, beer matures when in contact with yeast, and more quickly when in contact with a significant proportion of yeast in a "yeast cake". When yeast is removed from beer, maturation ceases.

All right, so "floccing" is an indication of dormancy, not death. Cool

Look, just take a freaking sample. If you're that concerned about loss, factor it in when developing a recipe. The extra pint to quart you'll need for gravity sampling is not going to impact the recipe that much.

lol, I like your attitude. I'll take the sample, but I'll just sample it myself if there's any ethanol in it.

They are either mistaken, overly optimistic, or highly euphemistic with they write "1.060 or less", because it's really ~1.028 or less. Hey, I've done the cell counts; methylene blue doesn't lie! If you don't believe me, though, believe JZ.

Here, I believe you. In mycology, they refer to yeast starters as "culture" or liquid culture. I assume it's not hard to do this....Does anyone know if you can keep yeast in suspension? I.E. if I grow a liquid culture of yeast, can I filter the yeast and suspend it in DI? Will it "flocc" out and can I keep it in my fridge in some vials?

 

[Ogri]

2. Stop using a "satellite". It's worthless, because there is not only no guarantee the ferments will be exactly alike, there's every chance they'll be entirely dissimilar. Stop sweating contamination - because you're going to develop good sanitation techniques like a brewer should - and take real gravity readings.

I suspect you are a very seasoned brewer with loads of experience therefore confidence in your procedure is assured, for you. Possibly even some of the magic of the whole process has been lost.

I wouldn't have thought there are too many, even total noob, brewers that would assume that the sample in the satellite is going to be replicating EXACTLY the conditions of the primary fermenter.

What it does for me is gives me the chance to refine my skills in hydrometer use, as often as I feel, without risking introducing some undesirable element to the primary. I can see, smell, taste, if I want to, the sample at any time and this makes it easier to just let the big boy get on with his job. Unmolested, as it were. Basically, it has provided me with something that satisfies my curiosity and impatience, also helping me overcome some of the noob insecurities. Kinda like a comforter

Is it a scientifically sound practice??Hell no!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it worthwhile???? Yeah, for some.

 

[Bob]

So both Ales and Lagers have a "diacetyl rest"? I.E. All species of yeast?

No. In lager brewing, where yeast-derived flavor precursors are objectionable, it is common practice to reduce diacetyl through temperature control of the ferment.

To the best of my knowledge, all strains of S. cerevisae produce diacetyl to an extent. In ale ferments, it's usually not an issue. Strains which produce a surfeit of diacetyl - like Wyeast 1187 (Ringwood) - can be controlled through careful control of the ferment temperature.

All right, so "floccing" is an indication of dormancy, not death. Cool

lol, I like your attitude. I'll take the sample, but I'll just sample it myself if there's any ethanol in it.

That's the ticket. You should be tasting your samples. It's important to know what beer tastes like at all stages of the process. Sensory evaluation is an important "hip pocket" method of determining if everything is on the right track!

When I transitioned from hobby brewer to professional, it took a while to build the knowledge of what beer should taste like 24 hours after pitching. Frankly, I still find it bloody awful, but there it is.

Here, I believe you. In mycology, they refer to yeast starters as "culture" or liquid culture. I assume it's not hard to do this....Does anyone know if you can keep yeast in suspension? I.E. if I grow a liquid culture of yeast, can I filter the yeast and suspend it in DI? Will it "flocc" out and can I keep it in my fridge in some vials?

There are any number of good yeast-ranching tutorials here on HBT. Have a look at the appropriate sub-forum.

I suspect you are a very seasoned brewer with loads of experience therefore confidence in your procedure is assured, for you. Possibly even some of the magic of the whole process has been lost.

I wouldn't have thought there are too many, even total noob, brewers that would assume that the sample in the satellite is going to be replicating EXACTLY the conditions of the primary fermenter.

What it does for me is gives me the chance to refine my skills in hydrometer use, as often as I feel, without risking introducing some undesirable element to the primary. I can see, smell, taste, if I want to, the sample at any time and this makes it easier to just let the big boy get on with his job. Unmolested, as it were. Basically, it has provided me with something that satisfies my curiosity and impatience, also helping me overcome some of the noob insecurities. Kinda like a comforter

Is it a scientifically sound practice??Hell no!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it worthwhile???? Yeah, for some.

I flatter myself I have some small experience, yes. I've been a hobby brewer for quite a long time, and I made my living as a brewer for a long time, too. Still keep my hand in as a consultant. The magic is still there; hearing an airlock go "blup" is still a thrill, and the neighbors have learned to love the smell of wort boiling as much as I do (they get the trub for the communal compost).

I maintain the "satellite" is doing nothing useful. If you want to refine your hydrometer skills, use the bloody thing as it should be used - in fresh samples taken directly from the fermenter. That way you're measuring something useful as well as learning how to deal with taking a reading through foam and bubbles and flocks of yeast and clumps of protein.

Here's the new brewer's dialogue with his hydrometer: "What is a meniscus anyway, and how do you read it through all this foam? Waitaminnit - the damn thing's floating out of the flask! Who developed this stupid thing, anyway?! Grr!" Trouble is, like any other pursuit, if you want to use the stupid thing you must learn how to use it correctly. "Satellite fermentation" is not using it correctly. If you're not going to use the instrument correctly, there is no point to using the instrument in the first place! If that's a safety blanket, it's a damn poor one. Thus, it is not worthwhile. QED.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[phenphen]

Bob, thank you for all of the useful info. Do you know of a thread that illuminates the path towards professional brewing? Or would you mind sharing some things everyone should do if they want to start a brewery? I just finished up a chemistry degree, but I'll be damned if anyone is hiring chemists in this economy, so I figured I'd try my hand in this. Should I just go take a tour of a big boy brewery?

As far as the hydrometer thing goes; It is a comfort to watch a satellite. In my case, my first brew was in a well known 6.5 gallon bucket. My satellite I made was in a transparent bottle that I was allowed to monitor. It's nice to see the yeast flocc out, create CO2 visually, monitor the surface, etc, etc. But I'd have to agree with Bob in that it's a bad practice to take any real indications of your brew from it. If you're worried about how to use a hydrometer, you could always use a sample of water. Dissolve sugars into it and watch the specific gravity increase.

 

[RM-MN]

If you want to learn about the brewing process from big boy brewery, take tours of lots of them. Each will tell you only part of their process during the tour, you know, company secrets. By touring several and comparing, you will learn more as each has its own company secrets and differ in what they consider the proper secrets to keep.

Borrow a clear carboy for one fermentation so you can watch the process of the yeast propagating and then beginning to make alcohol, realizing that there are still lots of things going on that you cannot see. Taste samples. See what changes between the end of the fast ferment at the second or third day and what still changes as you get toward the 2 or 3 week period. Yeast doesn't just eat maltose. Once you have watched the full process, you can give the clear carboy back since you won't be needing it anymore.

 

[Bob]

Bob, thank you for all of the useful info. Do you know of a thread that illuminates the path towards professional brewing? Or would you mind sharing some things everyone should do if they want to start a brewery? I just finished up a chemistry degree, but I'll be damned if anyone is hiring chemists in this economy, so I figured I'd try my hand in this. Should I just go take a tour of a big boy brewery?

The path towards wearing rubber boots for a living is different for everyone. I got my break by pestering the **** out of my local micro until they gave me a job sweeping floors. A few weeks later, I moved up to the bottling line and filling kegs. After six months of janitorial work and manual labor, I got to dough in under the owner's supervision.

Starting a brewery without any experience in a commercial, production setting can be a good thing - you won't bring any pre- or misconceptions - but it can also be a bad thing - because it's a HELL of a lot different than home-brewing.

Best advice is to haunt the ProBrewer help wanted classifieds. You may find a gig there. Alternately, if you're un- or under-employed right now, pester your local micro. Whatever you do, don't expect to make a lot of cash starting out. You'll be going into an entry-level job, making entry-level "skilled labor" wages. (If you start your own brewery, don't expect to pay yourself a salary at all for a couple of years.)

Cheers,

Bob