questions as I plan my first sour

[Legume]

I am planning my first sour, and need your help.
This will be a gluten free beer, made as a partial mash batch.
I will use WPL665 flemish ale blend as the source of bugs.

IBU...I am planning to target between 5 and 15 IBU, any sugestions on whitch end of the spectrum is best?

With such a low IBU, and a beer that does not need to be concentrated by a long boil; is there any reason to do a 1 hour boil? I was thinking of doing a 15 min boil to pasturize the wort and achieve the desired IBU. Is there a reason to boil for 1 hour in a situation like this?

Should I pitch a clean yeast culture first (giving the Sacc a head start), then add the mixed culture later?... or should I just dump in the WPL665 once I cool to pitching temp, and call it a day?

I need to make a starter for the WPL665 (to culture it away from its gluten containing media), many people advise against making a starter for these mixed cultures...but I do not have a choice. Any advice you can offer on making a starter for mixed bugs is aprecieated. I am thinking of using apple juice for the starter, then decanting and pitching the slurry from the botom of the flask. Should I bother to use (rice) malt extract in the starter?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice,

 

[505-Brewer]

I am planning my first sour, and need your help.
This will be a gluten free beer, made as a partial mash batch.
I will use WPL665 flemish ale blend as the source of bugs.

IBU...I am planning to target between 5 and 15 IBU, any sugestions on whitch end of the spectrum is best?

With such a low IBU, and a beer that does not need to be concentrated by a long boil; is there any reason to do a 1 hour boil? I was thinking of doing a 15 min boil to pasturize the wort and achieve the desired IBU. Is there a reason to boil for 1 hour in a situation like this?

Should I pitch a clean yeast culture first (giving the Sacc a head start), then add the mixed culture later?... or should I just dump in the WPL665 once I cool to pitching temp, and call it a day?

I need to make a starter for the WPL665 (to culture it away from its gluten containing media), many people advise against making a starter for these mixed cultures...but I do not have a choice. Any advice you can offer on making a starter for mixed bugs is aprecieated. I am thinking of using apple juice for the starter, then decanting and pitching the slurry from the botom of the flask. Should I bother to use (rice) malt extract in the starter?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice,

I would do 0-5 IBUs, short boil or hold at 170-180 for 10-15 min to pasteurize. Since your making a starter I would not pitch any other sacc yeast. Oh and maybe use some Clarity ferm to help w gluten issue.

What's your grain bill look like?

 

[rcsoccer]

I think if you pour off most of the liquid in the vial then you should get rid of all the liquid associated with gluten. Even if you pitched all of the vial in, you are diluting the liquid in the vial by around 200-fold. Should be fine. You could also use the Gluten Ninja stuff from White Labs if you are worried about too much gluten. As for the IBU and the boil.... Go for 5-10 IBU with a 15 min boil to sanitize the wort. Maybe add some rice to the boil to get some starches for the bugs to chew on during the long ferment. With regards to the yeast, you could either pitch a Sacc for primary and the pitch the blend later, or just pitch the blend. Either way with work. Oxygenate for a more funky Brett character.

Cheers!

 

[Legume]

Thank you both for the feedback!

505-Brewer... my grain bill is below.
I will do a partial mash at 180 F (using a thermaly stable alpha amylase) with the grains below.
1 lb toasted millet
2 lbs buckwheat malt (Grouse)
12 oz James brown rice malt (Eckert)

Because this mash will have only alpha amylase and no beta amylase activity, it will result in a dextrinus poorly fermentable wort; leaving lots of dextrins for the bugs to eat.

this mini mash will be added to 6 lbs or rice syrup extract, whitch is highly fermentable, and brought up to 5.5 galons.

I have used this type of grain bill In a previous (non sour) batch, and the final gravity (US-05 yeast), was 1.020. So I am expecting some dextrines to be left for the bugs to eat.

 

[Legume]

So I brewed this gluten free sour in August of 2015...and I bottled it today at aproximately 16 months old.

It has been on 1.5 oz of medium oak cubes for the last 9 months or so.
I added a 8 ounce bottle of sour cherry juice concentrate at the same time as the oak.

At botteling it tastes suprisingly good.
It is firmly tart but not vinegary, it has alot of very plesant earthy and woody flavors.
I am looking forward to trying it carbonated.

 

[coypoo]

Pretty cool! How does it compare to a gluten sour? Are some of those extract "twangs" lower?

 

[Legume]

Coypoo

Sours were not a thing in the US when I was diagnosed as a celiac disease and quit drinking "regular" beer...so I have never had a sour beer to compare my sour to. I made this because making my own is the only way for me to taste this style.

There is no extract "twang" in this beer...that is only a problem with sorghum extract, I used a rice extract in this recipe.

 

[coypoo]

Glad to hear, enjoy!

 

[sweetcell]

question: is gluten broken down by the bugs, over time, in sour beers?

sours have very few proteins in them (witness the poor head retention of sours). gluten is a protein. ergo, there should be little to no gluten left in a long-aged sour beer?

hypothesis: between ClarityFerm and the breakdown of proteins by the bugs, long-aged sours are gluten free.

 

[coypoo]

I would say just bc it's broken down, doesn't mean it's eliminated

 

[sweetcell]

I would say just bc it's broken down, doesn't mean it's eliminated

quite likely... and as i pointed out in this thread that i started in the GF forum, gluten itself isn't even the culprit: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=598983