Questions about March Pumps answered by the Factory!

[WalterAtMarchPump]

the reason why I asked what to use to clean the pumps was because what i really want to know is, is PBW safe to run through the pumps. Obviously some of you do it but is there any long term effects from using it?

Not sure what PBW is made from...but if you post a chemical composition of it i can look it up and see if anything will cause problems. Usually for short term exposure it wont harm anything unless its in real strong concentrations.

-Walter

 

[mattd2]

Not sure what PBW is made from...but if you post a chemical composition of it i can look it up and see if anything will cause problems. Usually for short term exposure it wont harm anything unless its in real strong concentrations.

-Walter

MSDS link from Five Star http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWMSDS.pdf
Bit vague on the composition though

 

[pola0502ds]

@pola0502ds here ya go ...

I guess I really don't understand exactly what this means:

"The discharge of the pump should be at the highest point of the pump if possible."

But thanks for posting this information.

 

[kinison_fan]

I guess I really don't understand exactly what this means:

"The discharge of the pump should be at the highest point of the pump if possible."

But thanks for posting this information.

outlet pointing up.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

MSDS link from Five Star http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWMSDS.pdf
Bit vague on the composition though

Well looks like the main ingredient is Sodium Metasilicate, i dont have that listed in my charts here, but have put a call into the plastic supplier to get us a compatability chart and see what they say. I will let you guy know hopefully very shortly.

-Walter

 

[jfkriege]

Is there a reasonable place to get replacement parts for march pumps, or do you self distribute at all for parts? I tried to contact a local distributor twice and got nothing in response.

Joshua

 

[Irrenarzt]

MSDS link from Five Star http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWMSDS.pdf
Bit vague on the composition though

The only reason the siiicate is listed is due to an inhalation hazard. The real magic is from the phosphates in terms of cleaning ability.

 

[Irrenarzt]

The PBW does not attack polysulfone or silicone in the o-ring. It is safe to use for this application. The only issue I see is beer stone like build up over time on the inside of the pump head but it is a minor issue and doesn't really mean anything.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Is there a reasonable place to get replacement parts for march pumps, or do you self distribute at all for parts? I tried to contact a local distributor twice and got nothing in response.

Joshua

We unfortunatly do not sell direct All i can do is give you the listings of our distributors: Distributors and i would suggest giving a few a call directly. You can call any one of them..not just who's local to you.

-Walter

 

[mattd2]

The only reason the siiicate is listed is due to an inhalation hazard. The real magic is from the phosphates in terms of cleaning ability.

Yeah as i said it is a bit vague, 30% sodium metasilicate / 70% others.
Do you know exactly what is in it?

 

[pola0502ds]

outlet pointing up.

That stinks. on both of my pumps I have the inlets pointing up and the outlets horizontal. Will I run into problems?

 

[DakotaRules]

I run my pump horizontal. I've never had a problem.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Yeah as i said it is a bit vague, 30% sodium metasilicate / 70% others.
Do you know exactly what is in it?

No but I imagine it's an alkaline based phosphate system. Nothing crazy like NaOH but it works well. I wouldn't worry about it attacking anything in the march pump system.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Well i got a fax this morning from the supplier, their chem chart is more vague then the MSDS of the chemical!! They list the polysulphone as "Excellent" for weak acids, strong acids, weak alkalis, and strong alkalis.
"Good" against organic solvents, alcohols, and gamma radiation ( )
"Fair" against UV radiation
"Poor" against Hydro Carbons and Fuels.

I have yet to see any of the 809's return to us here at the factory from any kind of chemical attack problem from the field, so i would think the PBW would be just fine

-Walter

 

[pola0502ds]

Thanks for digging into that Walter, that answers my question.

 

[Mike_A]

As far as priming the pumps go, basic rule is this: Keep the pump below the liquid level and when you open the supply valve the fluid should flood the pump naturally with just gravity. The discharge of the pump should be at the highest point of the pump if possible. If you have the pump mounted horizontally, then the inlet will be on your left and outlet will be on your right when you are facing the pump. If mounted vertically then the outlet pointing to the ceiling is the best way.

Walter can you please provide some clarification here? By "horizontal", do you mean the drive shaft is horizontal? I have in-line 809's with stainless "Chugger" heads, the drive shaft is horizontal (parallel to the ground) and the inlet faces the floor and the outlet faces the ceiling.

I occasionally have troubles with priming, even when I open the valve on my kettles and the outlet of the pump, and let liquid flow down to the pump head before turning the pump on.

Thanks again for catering to us homebrewers! Plus, hey, it gives you an excuse to read HBT at work. Side question though, do you brew? If not, how long do you think you can resist until you get the itch? Hahaha...

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Walter can you please provide some clarification here? By "horizontal", do you mean the drive shaft is horizontal? I have in-line 809's with stainless "Chugger" heads, the drive shaft is horizontal (parallel to the ground) and the inlet faces the floor and the outlet faces the ceiling.


Thats the ideal setup as far as orrientation of the pump goes. If you cant get the outlet to face the cieling then you would need to have the outlet facing to the right when looking at the pump head face on.

I occasionally have troubles with priming, even when I open the valve on my kettles and the outlet of the pump, and let liquid flow down to the pump head before turning the pump on.

unless you are trying to transfer a wort in a state of rolling boing where you may get air sucked intot he pump when its spinning then the only other issue i can think of that may cause problems would be if you had a trap (Or low point) on the discharge side of the pump that can collect some liquid and not not let air pass through.

Thanks again for catering to us homebrewers! Plus, hey, it gives you an excuse to read HBT at work. Side question though, do you brew? If not, how long do you think you can resist until you get the itch? Hahaha...

I do not brew...and to be honest i dont drink either! I seem to always end up being the designated driver though


-Walter

 

[pola0502ds]

"Originally Posted by Mike_A
Walter can you please provide some clarification here? By "horizontal", do you mean the drive shaft is horizontal? I have in-line 809's with stainless "Chugger" heads, the drive shaft is horizontal (parallel to the ground) and the inlet faces the floor and the outlet faces the ceiling.


Thats the ideal setup as far as orrientation of the pump goes. If you cant get the outlet to face the cieling then you would need to have the outlet facing to the right when looking at the pump head face on."


Wow,

on both my pumps I have the inlet facing the ceiling and i have the outlet horizontal face you if you are looking directly at it. I tested both of them for the first time this weekend and it worked fine.


Question from everyone. I noticed a lot of air bubbles running through my lines while I was testing. The fittings connected to the keg were completely filled with water such as everything else, where the hell is this air coming from? Maybe my hose is not clamped to the hose barb tight enough? They are pretty tight right now as is. It seems like when I have air bubbles I will grab the hose to remove the tension that the hose has on the hose barb from it's own weight with water in it and the air bubbles go away. As soon as i stop holding the hose, the air bubbles come back.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

"Originally Posted by Mike_A
Walter can you please provide some clarification here? By "horizontal", do you mean the drive shaft is horizontal? I have in-line 809's with stainless "Chugger" heads, the drive shaft is horizontal (parallel to the ground) and the inlet faces the floor and the outlet faces the ceiling.


Thats the ideal setup as far as orrientation of the pump goes. If you cant get the outlet to face the cieling then you would need to have the outlet facing to the right when looking at the pump head face on."


Wow,

on both my pumps I have the inlet facing the ceiling and i have the outlet horizontal face you if you are looking directly at it. I tested both of them for the first time this weekend and it worked fine.


Question from everyone. I noticed a lot of air bubbles running through my lines while I was testing. The fittings connected to the keg were completely filled with water such as everything else, where the hell is this air coming from? Maybe my hose is not clamped to the hose barb tight enough? They are pretty tight right now as is. It seems like when I have air bubbles I will grab the hose to remove the tension that the hose has on the hose barb from it's own weight with water in it and the air bubbles go away. As soon as i stop holding the hose, the air bubbles come back.

Sounds to me like you have the center inlet design. That one is setup right out of the box the right way....unless you wanted to mount the motor on a side wall or somethig then you would need to clock the head 90* to get the outlet back to normal.

How big are there air bubbles? if they are tiny you may be slightly cavitating the pump. Either the hose is bending and kinking a little causeing a restriction, or you may have a loose hose connection and air is getting sucked in where the hose is installed onto the barb.

-Walter

 

[pola0502ds]

I do not have the center outlet design. For the march pump the inlet and outlet on the pump cover are horizontal with one on each side. For the pump I bought from sabco both inlet and outlets are on the right side pointing up at a 45 degree angle. I dont like this pump as much but it does not produce anywhere near as much noise as the march pump. I used some elbows and other fittings to do what I did.

I think it's the hose bending and kinking because once I pick up the hose with my hand and move it a certain way the bubbles go away.

How can something like that cause air bubbles when there's no air in the lines to begin with?

What does cavitating the pump mean?

here is a pic of my pumps.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I do not have the center outlet design. For the march pump the inlet and outlet on the pump cover are horizontal with one on each side. For the pump I bought from sabco both inlet and outlets are on the right side pointing up at a 45 degree angle. I dont like this pump as much but it does not produce anywhere near as much noise as the march pump. I used some elbows and other fittings to do what I did.

I think it's the hose bending and kinking because once I pick up the hose with my hand and move it a certain way the bubbles go away.

How can something like that cause air bubbles when there's no air in the lines to begin with?

What does cavitating the pump mean?

here is a pic of my pumps.

Ah ok i misread your posting. As far as cavitating the pump:

"Cavitation occurs when a liquid is subjected to rapid changes of pressure causing the formation of gas or vapor bubbles in the lower pressure regions of the liquid. "

With our pumps its usually due to a restriction on the inlet side of the pump....as soon as the liquid passes the restriction there is a pressure change as the liquid tries to accelerate and thats when you get the bubbles. The fact that you say they go away when you pickup the hose leads me to believe the hose is closing up a tad (even though it doesnt look like it to you) and closing off the inside diameter to cause a restriction. You can try to remedy this one of two ways....either get reinforced hose that has a hard time kinking or go to the next size bigger.

-Walter

 

[pola0502ds]

For people who brew, does having air bubbles in your lines due to what is stated above, does it cause any problems while brewing? Or should i leave it. I spent 2.10 a foot on this 1/2" silicone hose and dont want to replace it.

 

[o4_srt]

I wouldn't think it would cause any problems, since we oxygenate the wort prior to pitching anyway.

 

[Wayne1]

Here are some quotes from the March pump installation manual

Install the pump as near to the suction source and as low as possible. Suction must be flooded. When using an
elbow, valve, etc., the suction must have straight piping in length at least five (5) times the diameter of the pipe.

All suction piping should be direct and short as possible with as little bending as possible. Excessive bending and
pump suction length will lead to flow distortion and pump cavitation.

You have elbows directly connected to the suction inlet. According to the instruction manual, you should have at least 2.5" (preferably longer) straight pipe directly before the suction inlet.

You also have a very long run of hose with lots of bends that can cause restriction and collapse of the walls of the hose.

A suggestion would be to move your pumps closer to the vessels and try to configure your piping to minimize the length of the hose to the inlet. Try to remove elbows from the suction side. Make sure ALL connections to the inlet side are 1/2" ID minimum.

I originally had my pumps set up similar to yours. I recently removed the elbows from both inlet and outlet and changed my pipe thread to hose barbs to a full 1/2" ID. This resulted in much improved flow through put. I do not have any problem with cavitation, bubbles or getting the pump to prime.

 

[emjay]

I need some clarification on what something means, though coincidentally the quote I'm looking at from a product description may help this guy's problem. Here's the excerpt:

"This pump has a maximum flow of 7.2 gpm with a maximum head of 12 feet. For an example of typical usage: with a head of 6' it will pump 3.25 gpm and with an 8' head it will pump 2.5 gpm."

The word "head" is used 3 times. If anyone knows for 100% sure, what exactly does it mean by a "head"?

For instance, let's say I have the pump positioned between my kettle and my plate chiller. Would a 6' head be referring to the length of hose (and connected fittings) in between the kettle and the pump (ie the "input length")? The length of hose between the pump and the chiller? The length between the pump and the fermenter, or in other words the "output length" (which includes a hose to the chiller, the chiller itself, and a hose to the fermenter)? Is it both the input length and output length combined? Or perhaps just the length of whichever side happens to be longer? Or is it something else entirely?!

If I had to bet, I would say it's what I had termed the "input length", although I think there's also a bit of a chance that it could be whichever is the longer of the two lengths.

If you're making an assumption based on common sense, or are otherwise not actually 100% sure, I'm not going to tell you not to post, but please at least indicate the level of confidence you have in your answer - I don't want to stop pursuing the answer if there's a chance I could be wrong.

Furthermore... is there any reason I shouldn't just skip the first hose and connect the output on the pump straight to the input of my plate chiller with just a ball valve for flow-reduction (or perhaps a bit extended with the pump -> coupling -> female quick disconnect -> male quick disconnect -> ball valve -> chiller)? What about the input side, such a hooking up a hopback with only a coupling (or a similar extended connection with another coupling instead of a ball valve), or even straight to the kettle in an identical manner (I plan on getting the SS housing anyways)?

And now that I've mentioned the hopback, I'm wondering if it should go before or after the pump? In addition to imparting nice aroma when stuffed full of hops, it also acts as an additional filter, and less sediment is probably a good thing with the wort going into the pump. But by the same token, because of this extra filtration, it may restrict flow - I only get my HopRocket hopback tomorrow, so I'm not yet sure how big of a deal it is.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm going to be putting together a HERMS system, and would obviously like to have it all planned out before I start getting all the little odds and ends I need. I'm going pure stainless steel and silicone tubing, and would rather not be buying all sorts of fittings I'll end up not using... SS fittings aren't cheap!

And that reminds me of one more thing... how many PSI is this pump capable of imparting? I know the typical pressures used in municipal water systems can cause silicone hoses to balloon and blow up, and I'm wondering if that's the case with this pump as well, so I'll know just how vigilant I'll have to be in keeping all connected valves open. My gut tells me the pump is not capable of actually blowing up the hose - or else using a valve on the output side of the pump to control the flow rate could be very risky (and I use that word in every sense... a hoseful of boiling wort exploding doesn't sound nice), and given the widespread use of silicone hose and these pumps for hot transfer, I just don't think so many people would be taking that risk without any mention. But my gut is often wrong, and common sense is unfortunately not consistently right enough for me to bet my safety on it, so I figured I'd ask the question.

(...aaaand breathe in.)

 

[Wayne1]

Introduction to centrifugal pumps

As per the article in the link, head refers to the height the pump can move the liquid above it.

In the system you describe, the ball valve should be at the fermenter. You want the restriction to be at the end of the flow path, if possible.

You do not want anything to interfere with the flow rate into the pump. In the case of using a hop back, you want a valve before the the hopback and one before the fermenter so you can control the flow rates both into and out of the hopback.

 

[Mike_A]

If you're going to restrict the outlet side of the March pump (presumably with a valve), do it immediately at the outlet, OR use something stronger than silicone tubing between the pump outlet and the valve.

"Head" refers to the VERTICAL column (of water, in this case) that the pump is capable of pumping. i.e. if the outlet pointed straight up and you had a rigid tube pointing straight up, the pump could pump as high as X feet of head (if pumping water). Denser substances, bends in the tube, restrictions, the surface finish of the walls of the tube/pipe all play a factor in limiting the head of the pump. The conditions that March will provide are all under ideal circumstances. You can basically count on getting significantly less head than the spec sheet says because of all those factors (and many more!) that exist in your system.

 

[emjay]

If you're going to restrict the outlet side of the March pump (presumably with a valve), do it immediately at the outlet, OR use something stronger than silicone tubing between the pump outlet and the valve.

"Head" refers to the VERTICAL column (of water, in this case) that the pump is capable of pumping. i.e. if the outlet pointed straight up and you had a rigid tube pointing straight up, the pump could pump as high as X feet of head (if pumping water). Denser substances, bends in the tube, restrictions, the surface finish of the walls of the tube/pipe all play a factor in limiting the head of the pump. The conditions that March will provide are all under ideal circumstances. You can basically count on getting significantly less head than the spec sheet says because of all those factors (and many more!) that exist in your system.

Oh alright, thanks. I'm not planning on a very significant head then anyways... so it shouldn't have too
much of an impact on my setup.

And yeah, connecting the valve directly to the outlet occurred to me immediately after posting, especially since it's the only way I've ever seen it done. All the talk about hose lengths apparently had me a bit twisted up

I doubt the hopback will restrict flow enough to create significant pressure on the walls of the silicone hoses, but I have to wonder if it would create cavitation issues or anything by placing it before the pump. Ideally I'd like to take advantage of its additional filtration so that less solids end up in the pump though.

Does anyone use a hopback with their march pump, and if so, would you mind sharing how you've set it up, and why you chose to do it that way?

 

[mattd2]

Introduction to centrifugal pumps

As per the article in the link, head refers to the height the pump can move the liquid above it.

In the system you describe, the ball valve should be at the fermenter. You want the restriction to be at the end of the flow path, if possible.

You do not want anything to interfere with the flow rate into the pump. In the case of using a hop back, you want a valve before the the hopback and one before the fermenter so you can control the flow rates both into and out of the hopback.

I think we need a sticky about setting up mag drive pumps that will deal with most common issues and most common mistakes made with the setup/piping/etc.
I would put my hat in the ring but I am sure there are others that know much, much more about this than me.............. Walter
I think this might remove a lot of priming issue threads as well

 

[BrewBeemer]

Here are some quotes from the March pump installation manual

When using an elbow, valve, etc., the suction must have straight piping in length at least five (5) times the diameter of the pipe.[/SIZE][/I][/B]

According to the instruction manual, you should have at least 2.5" (preferably longer) straight pipe directly before the suction inlet.

How many builds have you seen that did not follow any of the above March pump installation instructions then blamed the pump as the problem?
Liquids do not like to change directions (turns) not alone tight ones like those drilled brass 90 degree fittings called increased resistance with reduced flow volume.

Just because the pump inlet is 1/2" ID doesn't mean 1/2" ID tubing makes for a perfect world maintaining maximum pump flow and efficiency, stepping up to 5/8" even 3/4" ID will reduce the pump inlet vacuum reducing high heat caviation problems, (liquids turning into a gas) pump losing prime.