Questions about March Pumps answered by the Factory!

[mattd2]

How many builds have you seen that did not follow any of the above March pump installation instructions then blamed the pump as the problem?

Am I allowed to say all of them?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Am I allowed to say all of them?

NO! JK

I've encountered FUBAR installations years ago when drilling and installing well pumps with owners of DIY installations having big problems.
Many would not admit they were wrong even when alterations and improvements of their system were made before their eyes. Human nature especially the higher ups especially doctors and attorneys, cheapest but dumbest bass turds alive mechanically.

Matt, north or south island, hope your ok if north island and away from the quake?
Drains spin clockwise or anti-clockwise?
Just think spring and summer time around the corner for us, fall and winter for you.

 

[pola0502ds]

Here are some quotes from the March pump installation manual

Install the pump as near to the suction source and as low as possible. Suction must be flooded. When using an
elbow, valve, etc., the suction must have straight piping in length at least five (5) times the diameter of the pipe.

All suction piping should be direct and short as possible with as little bending as possible. Excessive bending and
pump suction length will lead to flow distortion and pump cavitation.

You have elbows directly connected to the suction inlet. According to the instruction manual, you should have at least 2.5" (preferably longer) straight pipe directly before the suction inlet.

You also have a very long run of hose with lots of bends that can cause restriction and collapse of the walls of the hose.

A suggestion would be to move your pumps closer to the vessels and try to configure your piping to minimize the length of the hose to the inlet. Try to remove elbows from the suction side. Make sure ALL connections to the inlet side are 1/2" ID minimum.

I originally had my pumps set up similar to yours. I recently removed the elbows from both inlet and outlet and changed my pipe thread to hose barbs to a full 1/2" ID. This resulted in much improved flow through put. I do not have any problem with cavitation, bubbles or getting the pump to prime.

Wayne,

Thank you for all that great information! I wasn't expecting that and it was a big help. Just when i thought i was almost done!

Am I going to have problems with the length of my hoses and how many i have? Once i connected all the hose I thought the same thing and wondered if i should at least insulate the hoses that work the RIMS tube. Besides losing heat, any other issues? The other day i did a test run, i started with 15 gallons in the HLT, transferred some of it to the mash tun. Then i transferred it from the mash tun through the rims tube and back into the mash tun. Then i simulated a fly sparge. Water was coming for the HLT into the mash tun and at the same time, water from the mash tun was be transferred into the BK. So both pumps were on because nothing is gravity fed and I had no problems. Seemed to work very well.

 

[pola0502ds]

I keep hearing everyone say that bends restrict the flow. As i am someone new to this, I cant wrap my finger around it. I just don't understand why it would cause any problems as liquid can take any shape, if that makes sense.

I agree, we need a sticky.

Last night i was playing around with my system. I have 2 kettles that sit next to each other on the same level. Both were about half way full and i needed to transfer water from one into the other. I had a huge problem doing this, the pump wouldn't prime or transfer any of the water and I think it's because both were on the same level, same amount of water in each to begin with, and head pressure. Am I correct?

 

[LordUlrich]

I keep hearing everyone say that bends restrict the flow. As i am someone new to this, I cant wrap my finger around it. I just don't understand why it would cause any problems as liquid can take any shape, if that makes sense.

I agree, we need a sticky.

Last night i was playing around with my system. I have 2 kettles that sit next to each other on the same level. Both were about half way full and i needed to transfer water from one into the other. I had a huge problem doing this, the pump wouldn't prime or transfer any of the water and I think it's because both were on the same level, same amount of water in each to begin with, and head pressure. Am I correct?

First, from a fluid mechanics stand point when a fluid turns around a bend it creates turbulence. Think if you had a bunch of ball bearings and dropped then down a pipe, and it had a bend, they would bounce off the walls of the elbow, same thing happens in fluids just at a much smaller scale. Every kind of fitting causes a head loss, but they are typically pretty minor. For a regular 1/2 in elbow with a flow of 1 qt/min (sparge flow rate), the head loss is .047 in. This is less than the measurement error for most brewing setups., but as velocity increases this number goes way up. the equation is found here: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/minor-loss-coefficients-pipes-d_626.htm

Now think of head as energy (that is what it is, potential energy), a pump is a device designed to add energy to the system, so having equal amounts of water in the kettles is not going to be the problem with your transfer as that is what pumps do, more likely your problem is you have air trapped in your lines, and it is filling the space you need your water to fill in order to prime your pump. try disconnecting tubing from the destination kettle, let some water flow out by gravity, then connect to back to the destination and run your pump (ie. purge the air from the system). In theory that should work.

I apologize for the long winded response

 

[FSR402]

I have a 809 and love it. But I'm working on going pro and I was wondering what other pumps you have that are heat rated for over 212* and higher flow rates.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I have a 809 and love it. But I'm working on going pro and I was wondering what other pumps you have that are heat rated for over 212* and higher flow rates.

The only pumps we have that would take higher temps would be the:

AC-5B-MD that is rated for 225* (all plastic)
AC-5PS-MD that is rated for 250* (all plastic)
AC-5SSB-MD that is rated for 250* (stainless housing with plastic impeller)
All the above pumps do 17gpm and max head of 27'

The only other pump i have would be our 869-CI which is a cast iron pump that will do 22gpm and 8.5' of head. (its more for closed loos systems but has been used other places) and it can withstand temps of 350*

-Walter

 

[bruin_ale]

Interesting info here.. so I know alot of us have a similar setup with 1/2" silicone hoses and the camlocks with the street 90 elbow. From the sound of what Wayne is stating, that's less than ideal and I should have a different hose that I use for the inlet side of the pump that doesn't have the street 90 on it as that 90 is causing a restriction on the inlet side and could lead to cavitation (I have the HF pump and it seems to work well, but just curious if I could get improved performance by changing my setup)

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

As far as the topic of restrictions and head height goes in previous posts, let me simplify it like this:

Any delivery pipe/hose/valve etc can only flow so much water before it will need more pressure to get more liquid out. For example....to keep things simple lets say you have 100' of 1/2" PVC pipe laying flat on the ground. ( i know thats not what brewers use but its only for example purposes) to get 2 gpm at the end of the pipe you would need a pump that can deliver a min of 3psi due to the friction loss of the pipe. Now if you raise the end of the pipe up and the end is now 10' off the ground you need to add the 10' of head height and the the friction loss of the pipe (which is 6.72') for a total head restriction of 16.72...and now you need a pump that can deliver 2 gpm at that 16.72' of head or 7.2psi. Now if you start adding elbows, valves, filters etc....it all add up and you have to factor all those things into your system. I think im getting to deep into it but hopefully that just gives an overview of whats involved.

pola0502ds, as far you you not being able to wrap your finger around why bends cause restiction....look at it this way. When you drive you car down the street in a straight line the only resistance you have is the tires rolling along the ground. Now if you were to go into a right hand turn and not move the wheel the car would come in contact witht he guard rail and direct your car aound the bend....but the guard rail is now adding resistance against your car and you need more power to get the car around with the same speed.....that make any sense?

-Walter

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Interesting info here.. so I know alot of us have a similar setup with 1/2" silicone hoses and the camlocks with the street 90 elbow. From the sound of what Wayne is stating, that's less than ideal and I should have a different hose that I use for the inlet side of the pump that doesn't have the street 90 on it as that 90 is causing a restriction on the inlet side and could lead to cavitation (I have the HF pump and it seems to work well, but just curious if I could get improved performance by changing my setup)

You wont get any extra performance flow wise in gpm out of the pump unless your lines are causeing a big restiction. You can cure issues like impeller thrust washer wear and cavitation by increasing the size of the lines. What you can do to see if your pump is opperating properly is time how long it would take to fill a 5gal bucket put inplace of where you transfer your brew and compare that to the flow curves of the pump. Measure the highest point where the pump pumps up to and find the intersection on the curve and see what the gpm would be and compare.
809 Curve

809-HS Curve

Lest say you have the 809-HS pump. You look at your system and the highest point the pump will be pumping to is 6'....you find the intersection point on the curve and see the pump should be delivering 4.5gpm. Assuming this is a straight 1/2" ID tube with no kinks, elbows, filters etc to cause any restriction.

-Walter

 

[BrewBeemer]

On the above "Coefficient" chart as example a "Elbow threaded 90*" has a coefficient of "1.5". This is a "regular" 90* fitting, what must the coefficient numbers be on a 90* brass fitting with both 90* drilled are intersecting inside the fitting? This is a sharp 90* directional change vs the directional change in a "regular threaded 90" fitting. These sharp 90's fittings are posted all the time on pumps and runs on this forum. Blame the weak pump as the problem instead.

 

[kickflip_mj]

Im looking for a triclover head on a 809, were can i get one?

 

[mattd2]

Im looking for a triclover head on a 809, were can i get one?

I don't think you can get one off the shelf but I have seen, I think Cluadius or GreenMonti, thread one on a SS (chugger I think) head and then weld in place.

 

[pola0502ds]

Lord and Wayne, thank you so much for your information. Everything makes sense now!

 

[pola0502ds]

Im looking for a triclover head on a 809, were can i get one?

This is what I did to add tri-clover fittings. See pictures. You can find male and female adapters. Thats what I did and I like the setup. But, from what we are just reading, I may have to remove some fittings or change it up a bit. You can mount a female triclover adapter directly to the pump head.

Warning, it does not take much to seal up whatever fitting you add to your pump head. No need to crank on it to get a good seal, learn from me. I was cranking on it and broke the threads completely off. The threads were stuck in the fitting that broke off and I couldn't get them out. So I just used JB Weld to glue it back on and it works just fine.

 

[BrewMoreBeers]

Walter:

Do you have a local distributor in Columbus, Ohio or should I order my next pump online again. I would really like to buy local if possible.

Thank you,
Kevin

 

[pola0502ds]

Guys, now that I am doing more tested I am really running into problems with the pump not priming. Can you guys look at my pictures in this thread and critique my build? I would also like it if someone can provide info on how to add a priming fixture/valve assemble to each pump. Maybe some threads that exist?

Just so you know the front left keg is my BK, the front right is my mash tun, the back right is my HLT, and the back left is my keg to create steam which will be used to sanitize my therminator, run through the lines to clean, and to prep my fermenter. The keg that creates steam is what I will be fermenting in. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Walter:

Do you have a local distributor in Columbus, Ohio or should I order my next pump online again. I would really like to buy local if possible.

Thank you,
Kevin

Only one we have actually IN Columbus is:

Ohio Transmission and Pump. Columbus, OH. Phone 614-342-6123

You can check out the others and see who can get ya the best price though:
http://www.marchpump.com/ohio/

-Walter

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Guys, now that I am doing more tested I am really running into problems with the pump not priming. Can you guys look at my pictures in this thread and critique my build? I would also like it if someone can provide info on how to add a priming fixture/valve assemble to each pump. Maybe some threads that exist?

Just so you know the front left keg is my BK, the front right is my mash tun, the back right is my HLT, and the back left is my keg to create steam which will be used to sanitize my therminator, run through the lines to clean, and to prep my fermenter. The keg that creates steam is what I will be fermenting in. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Can you post a better/closer pic of the pump setup....hard to see form the pics

-Walter

 

[emjay]

Where the heck can I buy one of these pumps with a stainless steel head these days? Or even a SS replacement head?

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Where the heck can I buy one of these pumps with a stainless steel head these days? Or even a SS replacement head?

Are you referring to the March pumps? If so you can check out our Canadian distributors and any one of them can hook you up.
http://www.marchpump.com/western-hemisphere-distributors/

 

[emjay]

Are you referring to the March pumps? If so you can check out our Canadian distributors and any one of them can hook you up.
http://www.marchpump.com/western-hemisphere-distributors/

2 of the 3 distributors in my area have catalogs available with at least 100 variations of March pumps - though only a fraction of them are 809's/815's of course. But none of the models in these two series - in either catalog - has a stainless steel head, only polysulfone and bronze.

If I have to order one from the US, I'm fine with that. But since MoreBeer replaced the HS with a higher flow 809, they haven't had a SS version to go along with it like they used to, and I can't find one anywhere else.

 

[pola0502ds]

Whatever you do, don't go to chuggerpumps, their CS is terrible.

 

[pola0502ds]

Walter, I will post pictures tomorrow morning. I didn't get your request until now and I need to take more pics.

 

[milldoggy]

What is wrong with chugger?

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

2 of the 3 distributors in my area have catalogs available with at least 100 variations of March pumps - though only a fraction of them are 809's/815's of course. But none of the models in these two series - in either catalog - has a stainless steel head, only polysulfone and bronze.

If I have to order one from the US, I'm fine with that. But since MoreBeer replaced the HS with a higher flow 809, they haven't had a SS version to go along with it like they used to, and I can't find one anywhere else.

Whats the exact setup your looking for? 809-HS w/Stainless head? Do you want a mounting base with it and a cord with a plug on the end? I can post up the part number for the pump assembly and you can just give it to the distributor....or just tell them what your looking for and have them call us direct. When they place orders they usually speak to either Michelle or Kay.

-Walter

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

If you have the distributor order part number 0809-0177-0100 you will get an 809-HS with stainless head....center inlet...with mounting base and 38" cord. You would need to install your own plug on the end of it. If you want a 230v version it would be 0809-0177-0200.
If you want it with a plug on the end then its # 0809-0196-0500 for the 115v and if you want 230v then at this time you just need to have them specify it when placing the order as i dont have a part number for that assembly just yet.

-Walter

 

[Irrenarzt]

Hey Walter, does 0809-0177-0100 have 1/2" MNPT on both the inlet and outlet? If so, do you have a part number for just the SS head?

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Unfortunatly our Stainless head only comes in one configuration. Center 3/4" MPT inlet and 1/2" MPT outlet.

-Walter

 

[Irrenarzt]

No worries, I'm ok with polysulfone but obviously others take a bit of issue with it. If you ever go with the same configuration as the current 180 degree 1/2 - 1/2 polysulfone head, I'd buy a couple if only for strength reasons. I've already broken off a couple ball valves from the polysulfone head.