Question on water amounts

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That's about as much as I want to get in to it. I could write a full blown example just don't have the time right now.

And what you wrote so far is seems like a lot of effort for a new brewer.

"Stove top" brewing (half water / extract at start, the rest at the end) offers new brewers the opportunity to try out home brewing using existing kitchen equipment. So it's a good starting point. And for many styles (lower ABV, lower IBU) it can make a good beer. Recipes exist for this process (see How to Brew, 4e), so there's no need for adjustments.

Higher ABV (or IBU) styles typically require a larger kettle (and heat source) for a full volume boil.

Based on what I'm seeing, "boiling as much water as you can" seems to add a lot of complexity (recipe adjustments, additional ingredients, ...) that may not be helpful to a new brewer.

 

[hout17]

And what you wrote so far is seems like a lot of effort for a new brewer.

"Stove top" brewing (half water / extract at start, the rest at the end) offers new brewers the opportunity to try out home brewing using existing kitchen equipment. So it's a good starting point. And for many styles (lower ABV, lower IBU) it can make a good beer. Recipes exist for this process (see How to Brew, 4e), so there's no need for adjustments.

Higher ABV (or IBU) styles typically require a larger kettle (and heat source) for a full volume boil.

Based on what I'm seeing, "boiling as much water as you can" seems to add a lot of complexity (recipe adjustments, additional ingredients, ...) that may not be helpful to a new brewer.

Boiling as much as you can means simply adjusting the hop amounts using some math or software for the extract recipe or kit to keep your IBU's the same it really isn't that hard. You can even use the nomograph Palmer provides to figure this out. The OP also appears to have the capability to boil a bigger volume as well.

The OP can always just follow the recipe instructions and still make beer.

Good luck to the OP.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Adding nomographs (which are basically an calculation specific paper slide rule) to the discussion seems to enhance my observation: "boiling as much water as you can" seems to add a lot of complexity.

It's occasionally said that "You're the head brewer in your brewery", so if complicated works for you, go for it.

Starting out, keeping it simple is often a better approach.

 

[hout17]

Adding nomographs (which are basically an calculation specific paper slide rule) to the discussion seems to enhance my observation: "boiling as much water as you can" seems to add a lot of complexity.

It's occasionally said that "You're the head brewer in your brewery", so if complicated works for you, go for it.

Starting out, keeping it simple is often a better approach.

Yeah like following the recipe instructions like I mentioned. Good day.

 

[wsmith1625]

+1

I know that people will tell you that you need to make adjustments with hop schedule or volume or blah blah blah, honestly you don’t, those small things won’t really matter, if you can control your fermentation temp that will help make a better beer than worrying about volumes and hop schedules.

If your planning to go all grain in the future, I would do some full volume extract recipes first. The steps for full volume extract are very similar to all grain after the mash is finished. It's a nice segue to all grain brewing.

If your planning to continue extract brewing, the late LME and DME partial boil methods will make great beer and save some time compared to full volume.

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/blo...mean-and-is-it-better-than-a-partial-boil-why

 

[hout17]

Boiling as much as you can means simply adjusting the hop amounts using some math or software for the extract recipe or kit to keep your IBU's the same it really isn't that hard. You can even use the nomograph Palmer provides to figure this out. The OP also appears to have the capability to boil a bigger volume as well.

The OP can always just follow the recipe instructions and still make beer.

Good luck to the OP.

I threw together an Excel spreadsheet (attached) for IBU calculations based on boil size and amount of extract added before the boil (adding half at the beginning and half at the end is usually a good thing). This will help you adjust if you decide you want to stray from the partial boil instructions based on this spreadsheet's IBU estimates that incorporates tinseth's equations for hop utilization.

Edit: I've updated the spreadsheet so you can input your entire recipe using specialty grains and also if you use both lme and dme so you can get an accurate recipe OG estimate. You then choose LME or DME for your boil addition to calculate hop utilization. This version also takes your steeped specialty grains into account for hop utilization if you have any.

Either way happy brewing!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Those who have read How to Brew, 4e and the "Full Boil vs Partial Boil" article may have recognized that most of the good suggestions in the article are already built into the processes in the book.

With regard to the articles suggestions on color changes due to boiling ...

Vastly improved color and flavor.

Since your concentration of sugars is much lower, the wort doesn’t caramelize as it does in a partial boil. Caramelization darkens the wort, and has a big effect on the flavor of your beer. Most brewers would agree that a full boil has a biggest impact on the flavor of your beer.

... I'll suggest reviewing a couple of Basic Brewing Radio podcasts (Aug 25, 2005 & Nov 17, 2005) as well as this recent topic How do I get lighter color with IPA?. Additionally, I just bottled a session APA where I used a concentrated boil [1, 2] - the color was in the "pale gold" range - which is where I would have expected it to be.

Hypothesis: a full volume 30 min boil of DME [3] does not contribute to a meaningful darkening of the wort.

Related idea: there are places in the brewing process where excessive darkening of either ingredients or beer can occur (and there are recent topics here at HomebrewTalk on each of these ideas).
1) verify the initial color of the extract
2) transferring to secondary will have a noticeable impact on color
3) bottling practices can have a noticeable impact on color
4) if buying kits "in bulk", be sure to store the ingredients properly.

---------------------------

[1] 30 min boil at level 1 (link to Boiling Wort Visual Reference). OG 88 at end of boil, OG 44 in fermentor.

[2] This was an 'experimental' brew session. It's not my intent to advocate for concentrated boils. I was curious about concentrated boil color (not potential flavor impacts or hop utilization issues).

[3] How do I get lighter color with IPA?

 

[Kawachs]

Thank you all for the information. I'm guessing you guys don't get too many female brewers?
@Transamguy77 It's going to take a lot to scare me off.
I do understand there are a lot of variables that can be considered. However, on kits there are not many variables that can be changed. So, from that stand point you have a kit with all the items (no more, no less) partial boil or full boil best?
We have completed 3 batches collectively (my husband and I and our friend), all of which have been a learning experience. We also have 5 (5 gallon kits) and a 1 gallon kit (that I plan to do myself) to go. I essentially wanted to know which way would be best for kit brews (partial or full) or if it makes much of a difference.
To those that said read the book, at some point I will, but I currently don't have the time, hence why I came here....
In terms of equipment, we have an 8 gallon brew kettle, 2 different propane burners and 1 wort chiller that we are hoping to modify to recycle ice water through versus just pumping a bunch of water in the yard or down the drain.
At some point we want to move move to all grain but since we are new to the process decided to start with kits.

 

[jtratcliff]

Thank you all for the information. I'm guessing you guys don't get too many female brewers?

There are a few on here... @Yooper is even an Admin here...

1 wort chiller that we are hoping to modify to recycle ice water through versus just pumping a bunch of water in the yard or down the drain.

You can save some/all of this heated water for cleanup afterward, use it to flush toilets, fill top-loading washing machines, etc. Doesn't have to go down the drain.

 

[hout17]

This is what I would do. Figure out how much water you boil off in an hour and get your boil off rate. If I were doing a five gallon extract kit I would do a full volume boil add half the extract and boil it with 6.5 gallons (my boil off is 1.5 gal/hour).

I would plug the kit recipe in to the spreadsheet I attached above and adjust my hops amounts down so I get a similar bitterness that the kit estimates.

Usually kit instructions have you do a partial boil and their hop additions are based on that so a full volume boil will require a smaller amount of hops.

I would just follow the 1 gallon kit instructions as is.

Good Luck and happing brewing!

 

[Yooper]

Thank you all for the information. I'm guessing you guys don't get too many female brewers?

There are a number of female brewers on this forum, but it is definitely true that the majority are males. You'll bump into some females but we normally don't have a tag denoting our gender so it may be hard to guess at times.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Over in the Extract Brewing forum, one can find a nicely enhanced stove top brewing process. This process solves a common complaint with DME: adding DME over boiling water causes it to clump,

• 5 1/2 gal.water
• 5 lbs. [...] DME
• 1/2 lb. 40L crystal malt
• 2 tsp. [ ... brewing salt ..]
• [ ... hops ...]
• [ ... yeast ...]

1. 2 1/4 lbs. DME dissolved in 1/2 gal. water for late addition
2. 2 1/4 lbs. DME dissolved in 1 1/2 gal. for the boil
3. Steep grains in 1/2 gal. of water for 30 min. at 150-160 F
4. Strain into kettle and bring to boil
5. 30 min. boil
6. [ ... hop additions ... ]
7. Pour into fermenter with late addition and wait 10 minutes
8. Cool in sink and then top to 5 gal.

Observation: one can make a slurry (small amount of water and DME) then pour that into the wort. No concerns about clumping and the DME slurry won't burn on the bottom of the kettle.

Observation: Steeping in a side pot could help with a shorter brew day when brewing extract plus steeping grains.

Observation: Gypsum and Calcium Chloride can be added to extract-based recipes to enhance flavors. The amounts to get 'best' flavors are specific to the brand (and maybe style) of the extract.

 

[Beenym88]

Thank you all for the information. I'm guessing you guys don't get too many female brewers?
@Transamguy77 It's going to take a lot to scare me off.
I do understand there are a lot of variables that can be considered. However, on kits there are not many variables that can be changed. So, from that stand point you have a kit with all the items (no more, no less) partial boil or full boil best?
We have completed 3 batches collectively (my husband and I and our friend), all of which have been a learning experience. We also have 5 (5 gallon kits) and a 1 gallon kit (that I plan to do myself) to go. I essentially wanted to know which way would be best for kit brews (partial or full) or if it makes much of a difference.
To those that said read the book, at some point I will, but I currently don't have the time, hence why I came here....
In terms of equipment, we have an 8 gallon brew kettle, 2 different propane burners and 1 wort chiller that we are hoping to modify to recycle ice water through versus just pumping a bunch of water in the yard or down the drain.
At some point we want to move move to all grain but since we are new to the process decided to start with kits.

Hey I am also a female brewer. I only brewed 3 kits before skipping to all grain. My opinion is what’s great about extract and kits is it’s supposed to be simple so I’d stick with the partial boils on the directions so you can cook it down to pitching temperatures much quicker. There’s no need to spend the time if you don’t need too.

 

[Beenym88]

Over in the Extract Brewing forum, one can find a nicely enhanced stove top brewing process. This process solves a common complaint with DME: adding DME over boiling water causes it to clump,

• 5 1/2 gal.water
• 5 lbs. [...] DME
• 1/2 lb. 40L crystal malt
• 2 tsp. [ ... brewing salt ..]
• [ ... hops ...]
• [ ... yeast ...]

1. 2 1/4 lbs. DME dissolved in 1/2 gal. water for late addition
2. 2 1/4 lbs. DME dissolved in 1 1/2 gal. for the boil
3. Steep grains in 1/2 gal. of water for 30 min. at 150-160 F
4. Strain into kettle and bring to boil
5. 30 min. boil
6. [ ... hop additions ... ]
7. Pour into fermenter with late addition and wait 10 minutes
8. Cool in sink and then top to 5 gal.

Observation: one can make a slurry (small amount of water and DME) then pour that into the wort. No concerns about clumping and the DME slurry won't burn on the bottom of the kettle.

Observation: Steeping in a side pot could help with a shorter brew day when brewing extract plus steeping grains.

Observation: Gypsum and Calcium Chloride can be added to extract-based recipes to enhance flavors. The amounts to get 'best' flavors are specific to the brand (and maybe style) of the extract.

You can also to turn the burner off then slowly pour it in stirring the whole time once it’s fully dissolved blast it back up to a boil

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You can also to turn the burner off then slowly pour it in stirring the whole time once it’s fully dissolved blast it back up to a boil

There are a couple of ways to solve the "DME clumps" problem.

Some are well known, some deserve more attention.

I mentioned the "create a slurry in advance" process (above) as the overall process leads to a shorter brew day. For example: prepare the "end of boil" slurry while the wort is heating to a boil (and the steeping grains are steeping). Towards the end of the boil, pour and stir. No need to turn off/on the heat.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My opinion is what’s great about extract and kits is it’s supposed to be simple so I’d stick with the partial boils on the directions so you can cook it down to pitching temperatures much quicker. There’s no need to spend the time if you don’t need too.

+1!

 

[davidabcd]

This process solves a common complaint with DME: adding DME over boiling water causes it to clump,

Nice ideas. I might implement some.
My DME does melt after a bit but it's a minor hassle. My biggest gripe was that the steam would cause the powder to solidify before coming out of the bag. I put it in a steel bowl now and dip the steel in the kettle to get it all.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I put it in a steel bowl now and dip the steel in the kettle to get it all.

I've used that approach as well & found that it works.

Over time, what I've found is that with 'fresh' DME, I can do a full boil with all the DME at flame-on and get style appropriate color (see my earlier reply [link] in this topic). So personally, I'm not seeing a need to use 'late additions' to control color; others may have a different perspective (and I'm willing to listen).

 

[davidabcd]

So personally, I'm not seeing a need to use 'late additions' to control color; others may have a different perspective (and I'm willing to listen).

I wonder how much stuff is out there as "fact" that just sounded good at the time and then everyone gloms onto it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@davidabcd : I suspect that stale extract (darker color at the start), transfers to secondary (oxygen ingress), and bottling techniques that add to oxygen ingress are the likely causes of 'the batch came out darker than expected' problem.

Color impacts for transfers to secondary and for bottling have been discussed recently here at HomebrewTalk in other topics. The pictures tend in those topics to "speak for themselves".

The color impact of stale LME is covered in an article at Briess's web site.

 

[VikeMan]

I wonder how much stuff is out there as "fact" that just sounded good at the time and then everyone gloms onto it.

It's a fact that a longer boil increases Maillard reactions, which darkens wort color.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There are a couple of BBR podcasts from 2005 (Aug 25, Nov 17) that cover brewing with extract.

One of them has an estimate for how much 'extract' darkens in a 45 min boil.

My 30 min boil 'side experiment' confirmed that number to my satisfaction.

Personally, for the way that I brew with DME, I get expected / estimated color by adding all the DME up front.

Standard disclaimer: YMMV.

... and this is a discussion, so I'm listening.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Amount of darkening during boil: BBR Nov 17, 2005, starting at around @ 48:50.

Summary quote: "Not a huge impact" on color for a 45 minute boil (a specific number is mentioned, I won't repeat it here).

​

Thinking of trying a concentrated boil? Apparently concentrated boils darken faster. Listen to the two podcasts to get the details.

 

[D.B.Moody]

My biggest gripe was that the steam would cause the powder to solidify before coming out of the bag

. . . and it created a bit of a cloud that settled all over. If you brew on the stove in the kitchen, that is terrible. That's why I do my late addition with DME that has been dissolved in 1/2 gallon of water in a (glass) mixing bowl. It takes care of itself while I do my 30 minute boil. I've started adding my aroma hops at flame out with the late addition. I do partial boils because it's easier: easier to cool down and easier to lift fewer gallons.
Edit: I guess I should note that I don't use kits.

 

[davidabcd]

DME that has been dissolved in 1/2 gallon of water

Doing that sounds cool but using the steel bowl solved the powder factor because I could work slowly, eliminating a dust cloud. Clumping in the pot isn't much of an issue for me; it always melts.
I said earlier that I won't do the partial boils because, one, doing an hour makes no difference to me and, two, I'm not going to try and figure out new amounts of hops or anything else based on it.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Doing that sounds cool but using the steel bowl

Sorry, I meant to make the point that dissolving it in a side, unheated bowl (any type) prevents, a cloud of DME.
It's no big deal on figuring hops, if you're willing to think old school HBUs. Boiling hops HBUs are reduced 10% for doing a 30 minute boil and increased 20% for doing a late addition of half the DME. 10% is easy to figure.
On the time note, I'm 78 now, and my time left is short. Also, I found it easier to carry about 2 gallons down to the basement for topping off to 5 gallons.

 

[davidabcd]

Sorry, I meant to make the point that dissolving it in a side, unheated bowl (any type) prevents, a cloud of DME.
It's no big deal on figuring hops, if you're willing to think old school HBUs. Boiling hops are reduced 10% for doing a 30 minute boil and increased 20% for doing a late addition of half the DME. 10% is easy to figure.
On the time note, I'm 78 now, and my time left is short. Also, I found it easier to carry about 2 gallons down to the basement for topping off to 5 gallons.

Well, you write like you're 30 so you have that going for you. I wasn't offended or otherwise so no apology needed. If I was terse, my bad.
I enjoy learning and providing the newest of brewers simple info. Beyond that, I'm not that valuable for info as it relates here.
I don't doubt the efficacy/efficiency/genius of all that you propose but I'm only willing to put in X amount of effort. I've got my process zeroed in (even if it's a little wrong) and I get the right color, flavor, IBUs (just read about HBUs, strangely, a few days ago) and carbonation.
But to readdress the one point: how will my putting DME in a steel bowl, carefully (as I do), be any different than any other method? Again, I don't care about clumping because it dissolves fairly quickly.

 

[D.B.Moody]

how will my putting DME in a steel bowl, carefully (as I do), be any different than any other method? Again, I don't care about clumping because it dissolves fairly quickly.

Probably not much. I'd guess you're avoiding the cloud that way too, which is the real reason I wanted to avoid pouring DME into hot wort. I wasn't worried about clumping either. I wanted to do late addition to drop a half hour of boiling time. My late addition isn't to the boil; it's added after the boil. I only started doing the 30 minute boil and late addition this year. It's the only real change in my brewing routine since I started 1994. I am a very casual, old school brewer.

Edit: The difference I see is that if you would dissolve the DME in that bowl before adding it, there is also no clumping with no extra effort. It would also require reducing your wort boil for the 1/2 gallon or so used to dissolve the late addition. However, as a brewer fairly set in his ways, I totally get your reluctance to mess with success.

 

[davidabcd]

only real change in my brewing routine since I started 1994. I am a very casual, old school brewer.

That's awesome. Anecdote: speaking of old school brewers, the guy who gave me my equipment, balked at the idea that I couldn't do lagers at room temp. I'm going to do one, one of these days.
Anyway, I still only do extract/grains which may be obvious.
"Late addition" makes a ton of sense to me though, above in the posts, it's disputed. I don't mind putting most of the DME at the end.; the hops are in the water for how long they need to be, anyway.
I liked the idea of late additions and so I keep doing it.
A regular amount for me is 8# of DME (I don't use LME for various reasons). That just means I know what it takes to melt that iceberg.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

For me, late additions are a good option where they add value.

With partial boils, there's less water to heat, less wort to chill, and one can top off with 40F water to help speed cooling the wort. Late additions of DME/LME are a good option.

And there are a number of good techniques to add DME without it being a stick mess.

With regard to troubleshooting darker than expected extract batches, yes, wort darkens during the boil.

But, from what I'm reading/seeing, not enough to be a meaningful difference.
If the the pilsen / extract-light extract starts here

due to improper storage,
it's not going to lighten during the boil.